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@SUBJECT:(24 Aug 93) Soc.Culture.Greek FAQ - Culture                  
Message-ID: <nfotis.746159972@theseas>
Newsgroup: soc.culture.greek,soc.answers,news.answers
Organization: National Technical Univ. of Athens

Archive-name: greek-faq/culture
Last-modified: 1993/08/24

Soc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answers
========================================================
(Culture)
=========
Last Change: 20 July 1993

Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site
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Nikolaos Fotis

========================================================================

This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy
freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact.

Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr

Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc.

Disclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I
(or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid
for it (and even less! ;-) )

========================================================================

Subjects:
=========
1. Bookstores that carry Greek books
2. Greek cuisine -- recommended books??
3. Greek wines -- reference book(s)
4. The 12 Greek Gods : who are they?
5. Greek Popular Music
6. Greek Mythology - Various questions, reference books
7. Greek shortwave (SW) stations
8. Greek Coffee, Reading Turkish grounds
9. Ways for a Vegan to survive in Greece
10. What was the Mythical Labyrinth??
11. Greek Muses (in Greek)
12. References on (Greek) Vlachs
13. Stores that sell Greek music

Proposed future subjects:
[ Please send me info to stuff these subjects!! -- nfotis]

 Graduate studies in Greece that are interesting for non-Greeks?
        (eg. archaeology)
[any ideas/info/... ??]

==========================================================================

I ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file more
complete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything.

YOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not!

=========================================================================

1. Bookstores that carry Greek books
====================================

Here are some addresses of stores/institutions
selling/publishing Greek books/periodicals/newsletters, in no particular
order:

US/Canada :
-----------

University of Toronto Bookstore
214 College Street
Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5T 3A1
tel.: (416) 978 7905 (ancient Greek)
            978 7923 (modern Greek)
(ask for the books used by the Classics department
 ancient/modern Greek courses)

Modern Greek Studies Association
Box 1826, New Haven, Connecticut 06508
U.S.A.
(ask for their Journal of Modern Greek Studies,
 their newsletter, bulletin, conferences, etc.)

Princeton University Press
Princeton Modern Greek Studies
41 William Street
Princeton, NJ 08540
U.S.A.
tel.:   (609) 258 4900
        (800) PRS ISBN or 777 4726 (orders)
(ask for a list of their books on modern Greek studies)

Pella publishing company, inc.
337 West 36th Street
New York, NY 10018
U.S.A.
(ask for a list of their books in general)

Schoenhof's Foreign Books
Cambridge, MA.
tel: 617-547-8855.

Greek books can be purchased in Montreal at the Greek Community Centre.
For more info. (prices, etc.) write to:

Communaute Hellenique de Montreal
Centre des Etudes Helleniques
5777, ave. Wilderton,
Montreal (Quebec),
Canada H3S 2V7

Attn. M. Chatzinikolaou
Tel.    (514) 738 2421  (until 17:00 EDT)
        (514) 340 3576  (after 17:00 EDT)

UK :
----

[ The area code is 071 ]

The Hellenic Book Service
122 Charing Cross Road WC2
London
phone 836-7071

Zeno
6 Denmark Street WC2
London
phone 836-2522

Kimon Bookshop
87-88 Plender Street NW1
London
phone 387-8809


Located in Greece:
------------------
Olympic Book Center
16 Efroniou
116 34 Athens
Greece

Avastatikes Ekdoseis
Bibliopwleio Diovusiou Notn Karbia
Asklnpiou 67
GR-106 80 A0HNA

Ekdoseis - Palaiobibliopwleio "KOYLTOYRA"
Mavtzarou 4-(Solwnos 54)
GR 106 72 A0HNA

Ekdoseis - Bibliopwleio Stratns G. Filippotns
Solwnos 69 & Asklnpiou
GR 106 79 A0HNA

Ekdoseis Aposperitns
Eressou 9
A0HNA

Ekdoseis Dwrikos
Ippokratous 72
A0HNA

Ekdoseis Epikairotnta
Mauromixaln 60
GR 106 80 A0HNA
FAX : 36.36.083 - 36.07.382

Ekdoseis Pella
0eof. Papadopoulos & Yios O.E.
Kwletth 15 & Emm. Mpevakn
A0HNA

Ekdoseis Stoxastns
Mauromixaln 39
GR 106 80 A0HNA
FAX : 36.09.197

Ekdoseis Kardamitsa
Ippokratous 8
GR 106 79 A0HNA


2. Greek cuisine -- recommended books??
=======================================

Look at gatekeeper.dec.com (anonymous ftp), under the directory
pub/recipes (there's also a compressed tar file that contains all
the files). Familiar names were:
(I just did a 'dir', and these were some names I found familiar)

avgolemono, avgolemono-2, baklava, briami, kourabiedes, lamb-kebab,
lasagna-1..4, margarita-1, meat-kebabs, melomacarona, moussaka,
spanakopita, spanakopita-2

From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
----------------------------

I can't attest to their authenticity, but the recipes in Jack Santa Maria's
"Greek Vegetarian Cooking" are absolutely yummy, which is enough for me.
It's in print in the UK (Hutchinson, I think) and you can get it in most
large bookshops.

3. Greek wines -- reference book(s)
=================================

Lambert-Gocs, Miles. "The Wines of Greece". Faber & Faber
London, 1989(?)

It contains over 2 hundred Greek wine brands, their characteristics,
history of large and small producers, etc.etc.


4. The 12 Greek Gods : who are they?
======================================

It's rather easy to remember most of the 12 Gods of Greek Ancient
Mythology. The most easy to remember are:

Zeus, Hera, Athena, Poseidon, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Ares, Apollo, Hermes,
Demeter, Artemis

The number 12 is the most troublesome:

> From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Richard Wallace)
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
> Subject: Re: REQUEST: Greek Gods



The most usual list has Hestia as number twelve. She was the goddess of
hearth and home, and so a rather passive figure, and from time to time
people seem to have thought that she didn't really earn her place, and
put someone else in instead.

So far as I know, Hades is one of the twelve only in the list in Plato's
Phaedrus (and perhaps, by implication, in the Laws),
and there Plato makes it quite clear that HE has made the
decision to leave Hestia out. I think Hades does not figure in the
normal lists because they are the twelve OLYMPIAN gods, and Hades does
not normally come to Olympus (though Poseidon does).

Sometimes you get Dionysus instead of Hestia. He is a rather aberrant
god anyway (either because he was a late-comer to Greek religion or for
some other reason) - in any case he doesn't normally appear in the list.

There is some evidence that there was a local tradition at Olympia which
substituted Kronos, Rhea, and Alpheios (the local river god) for
Hephaistos, Demeter, and Hestia, and there are other cases of the
insertion of local gods into the list in particular localities,
presumably out of local patriotism.

Mostly, they referred to them simply as 'the twelve', no doubt leaving
it open to each individual to write in his own list!

[ Personally, I feel that Dionysus was mentioned most often in the
 mainland Greece mythology, at least in Attica -- nfotis ]


From: G0900@vmcms.csuohio.edu
-----------------------------

THE MAIN GODS AND GODDESSES OF THE ANCIENT GREEK RELIGION

Greek           Latin           meaning
Name            Name
---------       ------
Zeus            Zeus, Jupiter   Master of the sky, father of the
                                gods and men.

Hera            Juno            Wife of Zeus, protector of marriage

Poseidon        Neptune         Brother of Zeus, god of the sea

Athena          Minerva         Goddess of wisdom, protector of arts
                                and crafts

Apollo          Apollo          God of the sun and music

Artemis         Diana           Apollo's sister, goddess of hunting

Aphrodite       Venus           Goddess of beauty and love

Hephaestus      Vulcan          God of fire, protector of metal
                                workers

Ares            Mars            God of war

Hermes          Mercury         Messenger of gods and god of trade

Demeter         Ceres           Goddess of agriculture

Persephone, Kore  Proserpina    Demeter's daughter, queen of the
                                        Underworld
      (Hades)
Pluton, Ades       Pluton       King of the Underworld

Dionysus, Bacchos  Bacchus      God of wine, vegetation and fertility

Asklepios       Aesculapius     God of medicine

5. Greek Popular Music
=======================

   [This is from an article originally posted to soc.culture.greek by
Jon Corelis.]

  Greece has an exceptionally rich and varied musical tradition, so
that it's difficult to know where to start. But the most popular Greek
music, both in the country and with foreigners, is probably music of the
two types called "rebetika" and "laika."

  Rebetika music has sometimes been called the Greek blues, and
although musically it's not like the blues at all, the comparison is an
apt one in that like the blues, rebetika music grew out of a specific
urban subculture and was associated with a certain type of life-style,
in which poverty, oppression, sex, alcohol, drugs, and violence played
prominent roles. Rebetika music basically grew out of the culture of
the Greek refugees from Asia Minor in the early 1920's. These people
were settled in Athens and other areas and continued to live for the
most part in their own communities, usually under conditions of great
hardship. They created through the fusion of the Anatolian musical
modes they brought with them with native mainland Greek musical
traditions a unique new type of music called rebetika (no one really
knows where the name came from) which reflected both the rough,
oppressed condition of their lives and the resilience, toughness, and
good humor which enabled them to survive.

  Rebetika is also similar to the blues in the development of its
social position. In the twenties and thirties it was popular with the
urban poor who created it, later it became scorned as "low-class" music,
and then in the sixties it experienced a revival, becoming immensely
popular among young people, some of whom formed their own rebetika bands
to revive the music of the great rebetika artists of the past.

 Giving a discography for Greek music is always a bit difficult, since
records tend to rapidly go in and out of print. But I'll give the names
of a few popular records which are probably still available. Perhaps
the best place to start is with the soundtrack album from the film
"Rebetiko," issued in Greece by CBS records. This film, which told the
life story of a typical rebetika singer, included numerous musical
numbers, some of which were old rebetika songs, others of which were
especially written for the film in rebetika style. Rebetiko is one of
the very best Greek records ever, and remains immensely popular in
Greece.

 For the real thing -- collections of rebetika taken from the original
recordings of the 1920-1950 period -- an excellent series is the six
volume Rebetiki Istoria, issued in Greece by EMI. If you can find all
six of these, you'll have about the best introduction to rebetika you
could hope for. A very interesting record issued in the U.S. is
Greek-Oriental Smyrnaic-Rebetic Songs and Dances (Arhoolie/Folkloric
9033,) which concentrates on the early rebetika style which still
retained much of its Eastern flavor.

 As for other records, it's probably better to give the names of some
of the better artists rather than listing individual records that may
no longer be in print. So look for the names Toundas, Tsitsanis, Markos
Vamvakaris, Rosa Eskanazi, Sotiria Bellou, Papaiouannou, and Rita
Abatsi.

 Fortunately for us English speakers, there exists a very good book in
English on rebetika: Road to Rebetika by Gail Holst (Third ed., 1983,
Athens, Harvey.) This book is sometimes found in university libraries
in the U.S., and can probably be obtained by your local library via
interlibrary loan service. You could also try writing the publisher at
Denise Harvey & Company, Lambrou Fotiadis 6, Mets, Athens 407, Greece,
and see if you get a response. It may be a bit of trouble to track this
book down, but it's absolutely worth it if you want to investigate this
type of music.

 The other type of music is a looser category sometimes called
"laika," which basically means just "popular music." This is the music
"everyone" listens to -- sort of like rock music in the U.S. And like
rock it includes music of many different subtypes. Again, it will
probably be better to give names rather than individual recordings.
One of the best, and probably the most popular, of the artists in this
field is George Dalaras, who has worked in a wide range of genres --
recently he has branched out to include Spanish music in his
repertoire. Another good artist, who has often worked with Dalaras, is
Haris Alexiou. These two are perhaps the best introduction to laika
music at its best. A singer with a smaller but devoted following is
Arleta (she goes by her first name only,) who tends to do relaxed but
often very beautiful folk-type songs, with minimal acoustic
accompaniment. The composers Hadjidakis and Theoradakis have
innumerable records and have to some extent become popular outside of
Greece.

 Perhaps I should also note that there is a certain amount of overlap
between rebetika and laika: Dalaras has recorded several rebetika
albums, Alexiou usually includes some rebetika songs on her records, and
Hadjidakis frequently uses rebetika songs as the basis for his
orchestral arrangements.

 A final note for anyone who plans a trip to Greece: the best place
I've found to buy Greek music is the record shop Pop 11, at Pindarou 38
(corner of Tsakalof) in the Kolonaki section of Athens. They have a
huge selection, the staff are knowledgable and speak English, and they
take credit cards. The staff will also be able to advise you on places
to hear rebetica and other Greek music in Athens.


6. Greek Mythology - Various questions, reference books
=======================================================

From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara")
Subject: Re: Mythology questions
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:12:28 GMT

kambizm@fidibus.uio.no (Kambiz Iranpour Mobarekeh) writes:
>I am looking for the names of some mythological personalities
>whom I read about once. One is the guy who still rolls
>a stone up the hill again and again.

This is Sisyphos (Sisufos) who tried several times to avoid
death; he actually succeded many times. He visited Hades (Adns)
and he found some tricks to come back to life. In ceramic
paintings, he is depicted pushing a stone towards the top
of a mountain, and when he is almost at the end, the stone
slips and rolls down fast. He was from Korinthos.
His struggle symbolises people's struggle against death,
something he did not eventually avoid himself.

> The other is one who is
>thirsty standing in a river in Hades trying to drink water but
>the water disappears each time. What was his name?

This is probably Tantalos, the king of Ludia (part of Asia Minor,
east of Smyrna). He was invited to dinner by the Gods,
but he could not reach anything, neither food, nor drink.
He was punished so, because when he invited the Gods to dinner
instead of sacrificing an animal for them, he sacrificed
his son, Pelops (Pelopas), whose name is the first part
of the name "Peloponnese." Tantalos was also punished,
because he gave the recipe of ambrosia and nectar
(the food and drink of the Gods) to the people.
(This story is similar to that of Prometheus, who gave
fire to people).

> Third question
>is was it Ogyas (or Ogias) barns which were cleaned by Hercul?

This must be the Avgias barns (stauloi Augeiou). Hercules (Hraklns)
was supposed to clean the barns of Augeias, king of Helis (Hlis),
in western Peloponnese. This was necessary, because the dirt (shit)
of the cows of Augeias was so much that deseases would spread to the
people. Hercules had 1 day to complete the job, otherwise he would
be a slave (doulos) for the rest of his life. Would he complete
the job, he would get a part of the kingdom and the daughter
of the king as his wife. Hercules did clean the barns (according
to some mythology version, he turned 2 rivers towards the barns
and all dirt was gone by the water), but then Augeias did not
keep his promise and Hercules fought against him. I don't
remember if he won (I wasn't there, anyway :-)).

From: nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein)
-------------------------------
[regarding the last question]

 Herakles (Latinized to Hercules) cleaned the stables of King Augeas.
You may be thinking of the island of Ogygia, where Odysseus was restrained
by the nymph Kalypso after his Great Wanderings and before he returns to
Ithaka.

[ nfotis: we could continue ad infinitum with Greek Mythology, which
 is *very* rich and engaging, IMHO. You're advised to read some good
 books about Greek Mythology. cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
 suggests these two books:

> A good reference book for Greek mythology is Robert Graves' book the Greek
> Myths which has copious references to the original sources. Don't believe his
> personal commentaries however as they are idiosyncratic to put it
> mildly. Another book that might interest you is H.J.Rose's A Handbook of
> Greek Mythology.

Note: I didn't read those books, so don't sue me it these aren't good for
your tastes! ]





7. Greek shortwave (SW) stations
================================

From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Subject: Re: Need Help finding SW stations!

Try (around midnight UTC) 9.395MHz and 9.420MHz.

Other frequencies (time is important) are 9.425MHz, 11.595MHz
and 11.645MHz (one of the last two is not the Voice of Greece,
but the Radio Station of Macedonia, from the city of
Thessaloniki, which simply relays the local program; can be
heard clearly in London after 1pm UTC).

[ Anyone who can add more?? -- nfotis ]

8. Greek Coffee, Reading Turkish grounds
========================================

wfk@cellar.org (William F. Kershner) writes:
--------------

>Can anyone explain the art of fortune-telling by reading Turkish coffee
>grounds? I enjoy my coffee metrio and would like to know more about it.

From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara")
------------------------

First, all what you are going to read after this line is a fraud!

The part of the coffee cup which is positioned closest to the person
drinking it is the part of the heart. There all the sentimental
issues are depicted...  The opposite part of the cup describes the
"professional" issues. In general it is good for the grounds not to
be very dark. So when you drink your coffee, before it ends, shake
it a bit, then turn it upside down, so that most grounds go away.
You make your future better!

If you have a lot of imagination you look at the shapes the grounds
have done and talk about roads, houses, airplanes, trees, etc.

The bottom of the cup is the deep part of the heart... You make
a wish and put your finger there. If the finger leaves a clear mark
then the wish will come true. If the finger does not catch all the
grounds, then the wish will not become true ... So twist your finger
a bit, when you put in the bottom of the cup. But do this without
the person telling you your fortune to know about it!

Well, the fraud is over.

From kk@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Konstantinos Konstantinides)
and jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis):
------------------------

There is a monograph on the topic (in Greek) by Elias Petropoulos,
O tourkikos kafes en elladi (Athens, Ekdoseis Grammata, 1979).

The monograph has lots of figures and discusses the art of
coffee reading in Greek prisons.

A very interesting book, with many illustrations, including some of
coffee-grounds patterns with their supposed meanings. The title, of
course, is deliberately provocative. In case anyone wasn't upset enough
by it, Petropoulous makes a point of beginning his book by saying, "Oi
Tourkoi, opou deon na thewrountai paterades twn neoellinwn, metaksu
allwn agathwn kai deinwn pou mas eklirodotisan einai kai o kafes."


9. Ways for a Vegan to survive in Greece
========================================

For Vegans (NOT vegetarians - they eat cheese and eggs and milk etc.), who
are people who don't eat animal products at all, there are some resources:

From: cpbuehrer@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu
-------------------------------------

Well...I just spent three weeks in Greece...most of that was spent in Athens.
And I'm a vegetarian. I remember a restaurant in Plaka in Athens called Eden.
It's a vegan/vegetarian restaurant...priced pretty decently. They had a ton
of bizarre dishes that I'm not going to even attempt to start listing them.
Suffice it to say that I could have eaten three meals a day there for those
three weeks and never would have had to eat the same thing twice. There's
also a fast food restaurant chain called "Goody's"...it's alot like Wendy's
or BK in the states. They had alot of different types of salads available.
I usually got this one called Mexican salad...which was beans, lettuce, corn,
radishes, and some other veggies. Anyway, those salads were completely free
of animal products (don't order the salad dressing though!).

And then you can always go to the marketplaces or supermarkets and stock up
on fresh fruits, veggies, breads, etc...those sorts of things are also readily
available. Probably the only problem your students will have (and personally
I don't consider this a problem) is that they'll have to eat a lot of raw
uncooked things...if they don't care about that though then they won't ever
go hungry!

From: trevore@vast.unsw.edu.au (Trevor Elbourne (Supr. Hell) BE)
------------------------------

Well Greeks have an intresting custom that might help. On religious
ocasions they faast. When I mean Greeks honestly faast I mean all products that
come from animals with blood are excluded. A possible exception were the food
for fasting would not be OK is some sea food. Like kalamari or octupous. But
that would be obvious. So there is a range off food set up for the fasting that
would fit very well. I don't live in Greece now but I am sure if you ask
for food for the fasting then you should have no problem. There is quite a bit
of it.

10. What was the Mythical Labyrinth??
=====================================

From: nextug@ac.dal.ca
----------------------

There seem to be two schools of thought:

One is that the palace at Knossos was itself also referred to as The Labyrinth.
Gerhard Sasse in his book "Crete" (APA Publications, 1990) writes:

"The Greek designation of part of the palace, if not the whole of it, as
the Labyrinth, could also mean "House of the Double Axe", if the derivation
of the word labyrinth from the Anatolian word 'Labrys' (double axe) is
accepted.

"In Knossos several of these artifacts were found, in the so-called
"Shrine of the Double Axe", and the holy sign of the double axe was scored into
pillars and on votive objects -- as in other Cretan palaces."

On the other hand The Labyrinth may have actually been a passageway of caves
in close proximity to Knossos. Lawrence Durrell in his book "The Greek Islands"
(Vicking Press, New York, 1978) writes:

"To revert for a moment to the vexing question of the labyrinth, it is
important to make a distinction between a man-made maze and a labyrinth
constructed by nature; and the natural geological labyrinth situated near
Gortyna has for long been a candidate for the honours of being the original
lair of the Minotaur. Sceptics have declared that it is simply an abandoned
quarry with a few corridors but, while I have not completely explored it
myself -- for lack of an Ariadne and a ball of thread -- I think it is more
suggestive than that.

"I can vouch ... for the fact that the place is known as "The
Labyrinth" in the local speech. To the best of my knowledge the whole of it
has never been explored, though the villagers thereabouts claim the internal
network of corridors span an area of some ten kilometers. One must, as always,
subtract a bit of peasant exaggeration, but nevertheless the place is
impressive ..."

A certain Reverend Tozer who wrote a travel book in the 19th century (haven't
the reference at hand) wrote:

"Our host, Captain George, undertook to be our guide and accordingly
next morning we started in his company and, fording the stream close
under the Acropolis of Gortyna, ascended the hills towards the north-west
and in an hour's time reached the place ... It is entered by an aperture of
no great size in the mountainside, where the rocks are of clayey limestone,
forming horizontal layers; and inside we found what looks almost like a
flat roof, while chambers and passages run off from the entrance in various
directions ... We were furnished each with a taper and descended by a
passage on both sides of which the fallen stones had been piled up; the roof
above us varies from four to sixteen feet in height. Winding about, we
came to an upright stone, the work of a modern Ariadne, set there to show
the way, for at intervals other passages branched off the main one, and
anyone who entered without a light would be hopelessly lost. Captain
George described to us how for three years during the late war (1867-9)
the Christian inhabitants of the neighbouring villages, to the number of
five hundred, and he among them, had lived there as their predecessors
had done during the former insurrection, to escape the Turks who had
burned their homes and carried off their flocks and herds ..."

If you wish to pursue this issue seriously I would reccommend you go to your
local library and do some research. A couple of books that might get you
started
 (in addition to the ones already cited):

AUTHOR: Bord, Janet, fl. 1972-
TITLE: Mazes and labyrinths of the world /
IMPRINT: London : Latimer New Dimensions, 1976.

AUTHOR: Matthews, William Henry, 1882-
TITLE: Mazes and labyrinths : their history and development /
IMPRINT: New York : Dover Publications, 1970.

AUTHOR: Doob, Penelope Reed.
TITLE: The idea of the labyrinth from classical antiquity through the Middle A>
IMPRINT: Ithaca : Cornell University Press, 1990.

I don't know anything about the "Cave of the Cyclops" near Sougia. Are you
certain that it exists? I'd be surprised if there were any pictures of it
even if it does exist, let alone ones available via ftp.

Not far away (a few km from Asogires, to the west of Sougia) is the well known
C
ave of Soure in which the 99 Holy Fathers lived. Also east of Rodovani (also
west of Sougia) is the Cave of Skotini in which ceramic remains from the
Classical epoch (550-67 B.C.) have been found. To the east is the world famous
Samaria Gorge and en route is the Tzanis Cave where legend has it that on
moonless nights a shepherd, enchanted by a water sprite, plays his lyre and
sings of sorrow ...

Good luck!

Christopher Majka.

11. Greek Muses (in Greek)
==========================
[ Can anyoe make an acceptable translation?? - nfotis ]

From: peter@ENGR.TRINITY.EDU (Peter Vafeades)
-----------------------------

Mouses, oi: 0ugateres tns Mvnmosuvns kai tou Dia n' tns Armovias n' tou Ouravou
kai tns Gaias, 0eotntes tns poinsns, tns mousikns, tou xorou, tns astrovomias
kai gevika twv texvwv kai twv epistnmwv.  O ari0mos tous poikillei: allote
treis, allote efta kai telika oi e3ns evvia:

Kalliopn, n spoudaiotern apo oles, prostatria tns epikns poinsns
Kleiw tns Istorias,
EUTERPH tns mousikns,
Polumvia twv umvwv kai tns mimikns,
Teryixorn tou xorou kai tns xorikns poinsns,
Eratw tns lurikns poinsns,
Melpwmevn tns tragwdias,
0aleia tns kwmwdias kai
Ouravia tns astrovomias.

Arxngos tous 0ewrouvtav o Apollwvas (Mousngetns).  Topos latreias tous ntav
ektos apo tov omwvumo lofo stnv A0nva kuriws o Elikwvas stn Boiwtia.  Oi
arxaioi
Ellnves tous eixav afierwsei tis pnges Agavippn kai Ippokrnvn.  Agapnmevoi tous
topoi e3allou ntav o Parvassos kai oi Delfoi (0eog. 1 k. e3. 52.75 k.a. Om Um.
25. Apollod. A13)

======================================================================

12. References on (Greek) Vlachs [NEW]
================================

From: baloglou@oswego.Oswego.edu
--------------------------------
 
 In response to a recent posting on s.c.bulgarian about Vlachs, I would like
 to quote a few references, as well as some information on Greek
 Vlachs (Koutsovlachs) from Evangelos Averoff-Tositsas' book "The
 political side of the Koutsovlach affair" (first published in 1948).
 
 First, the references, which, according to the author, cover all
 theories concerning the roots of that Balkan group/tribe/nation:
 
 A. Keramopoulou. Ti eivai oi koutsoblaxoi. Athens, 1939.
 


 M. Xrusoxoou. Blaxoi kai koutsoblaxoi. Athens, 1909.
 
 Th. Capidan. Les Macedo-roumains du Pinde. Paris, 1937.
 
 N. Jorga. Introduction a la connaissance de la Roumanie et des
           Roumains. Bucarest, 1927.
 
 G. Bratianu. Une enigme et un miracle historique, le peuple
              roumain. Bucarest, 1937.
 
 B. Recatas. L' etat actuel du bilinguisme chez les Macedo-roumains
             du Pinde et le role de la femme dans la language. Paris, 1934. 
 
 A.J.B. Wace-M.S. Thompson. The nomads of the Balkans. London, 1914.
 
 Ilia Barbulescu. Relations des Roumains avec les Serbes, les Boulgares,
                  les Grecs et la Croatie en liaison avec la question
                  macedo-roumaine. Jasi, 1921.
 
 Jovan Cvijic. La Peninsule Balcanique. Paris, 1918.
 
 Jacques Ancel. Peuples et nations des Balkans. Paris, 1926.
 
 G.A.Virgilij. La Questione Rumeliota. Bitonto, 1909.
 
  
 Two additional references (in Greek), somewhat more specialized, are:
 
 K. Nikolaidou. Etumologikov Le3ikov tns Koutsoblaxikns Glwssns. Athens, 1909.
 
 A. Xatznmixaln. Oi ev tw Ellnvosxoleiw Metsobou dida3avtes kai
                 didax8evtes. Iwavviva, 1940. 
 
 
 In his book, Mr. Averoff-Tositsas focuses on the efforts by Romania
 and Italy, prior to WW II and during WW II, respectively, to claim
 the Vlachs of Greece--a semi-nomadic people of (usually) Greek
 conscience who speak a Romanian/Latin dialect--as their brethren.   
 Romanian efforts were focused on the establishment of schools and
 scholarships luring the poor, while Italian efforts were based on
 military occupation and the fascinating claim that the Vlachs were
 the descendants of the Fifth Roman Legion! Romanian propaganda was
 more successful, resorting even to transplanted songs about "the     
 pretty gal waiting beyond the Black Sea" or "the brother in the
 great Vlach plain"; the end of a song is particularly illuminating:
 
 "K' nti foumlou atselou gritsesklou  "Because that Greek tobacco
  Ntounikat i minti alorou"            has darkened their mind"
 
 The origins of and relations among Vlachs living in various parts         
 of the Balkans are complicated and certainly not known to me; I   
 understand that those of southern Yugoslavia & Bulgaria often consider
 themselves to be Greek (no statistics available), but I guess this   
 changes as one gets closer to Romania. (I hope other netters can     
 provide more information.) Within Greece, Vlachs are considered to        
 be Greek, although somewhat different; it is said that their men make   
 good husbands, while their women can be fatally attractive, "having    
 young men stabbing each other by their aprons" ("stis podies tous  
 sfazovtai pallnkaria"). I hope to provide some personal impressions,
 based on a trip passing through the Vlach village of Samarina, in a
 future posting (scg, only).
 
 I would like to conclude with a few words about Mr. Averoff-Tositsas,
 who passed away on 1/2/90: a Vlach himself, he was a major figure of
 post-war Greek politics, having played a major role in the Cyprus affair,
 the passage from dictatorship to democracy, etc; in addition to this, he
 was an author and play-writer, art collector, cheese-maker and owner of
 20,000 almond trees. 
 

======================================================================

13. Stores that sell Greek music
================================

There are many stores. Here I add what's been noted on soc.culture.greek:

From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
----
Few days ago I posted a phone number for a company that sells
greek music.  To day I received mail from people who tried to call
the company but the got a message saying the # was not available.

So here's the number again: 1-800-4530013,(I dialed it from 
Illinois, and works fine).  Another no. showing on the cataloque is
1-718-3839455.

From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
----
Someone mentioned looking for Greek music stores in Astoria.  One
place that carries Greek CDs and tapes (also videos) in Astoria is

        Corfu Center
        (718)-728-7212

There is also a Greek store on 42nd street just across from the Port
Authority Bus Terminal, again with CDs, tapes, and videos.

From: sarandrea@rdvax.enet.dec.com <Teresa Sarandrea>
----
The best place I've found for Greek music is
Greek Video Records & Tapes, Inc., 394 McGuinness Blvd.,
Brooklyn, New York, U.S.A. 11222,
phone 718-383-9455, FAX 718-383-5313.  

You can request copies of their catalogues:

        1.  Video Catalog:  over 1200 titles of Greek videotapes
        2.  Compact Disc Catalog:  over 800 selections of Greek CDs
        3.  New General Cassette Catalog:  over 1200 selections of Greek 
            Cassettes

This place is the best source for music.  Most of the retail Greek stores 
buy their music and videos from here, so they also sell wholesale.  


======================================================================
End of Cultural Part of the FAQ
-- 
Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis         National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece
HOME: 16 Esperidon St.,       InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
      Halandri, GR - 152 32   UUCP:    mcsun!pythia!theseas!nfotis
      Athens, GREECE          FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578



*****************************************************************Last-modified: 1993/08/24

Soc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answers
========================================================
(Technical Information)
=======================
Last Change: 20 July 1993

Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site
rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.224] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers.
The name under which a FAQ is archived appears in the Archive-name
line at the top of the article.
This FAQ is archived as greek-faq/technical

There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to
mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu  containing the keyword "help" (without
quotes!) in the message body.


Items Changed:
--------------

--------------

Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them.
Added lines are prepended with a `+'
Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes.

I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'.

Nikolaos Fotis

========================================================================

This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy
freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact.

Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr

Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc.

Disclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I
(or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid
for it (and even less! ;-) )

========================================================================

First, I wish to thank publicly the following people:

Spiros Triantafyllopoulos <c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com>
P." Iatroudakis           <ccav82@ccsun.strath.ac.uk>
Achilles Voliotis         <achilles@theseas.ntua.gr>
Yiannis Moschovakis       <ynm@math.ucla.edu>

for their help in making the initial list more clear and complete.

Second, that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I
(or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid for it
(and even less! ;-) )

Subjects:
=========

1. What is the Soc.Culture.Greek newsgroup??
        a. Newsgroup charter
        b. Network etiquette.
        c. How does one receive soc.culture.greek without USENET access??
2. What's needed in order to have Greek characters in my computer?
        a. PCs
        b. PCs with MS Windows
        c. Mac
 d. Amiga
 e. Atari
        f. Other
3. Internet/BITNET/UUCP sites in Greece?
 a. InterNet sites
 b. BITNET/EARN sites
 c. UUCP sites
 d. Internet providers
4. What standards exist for inclusion of Greek characters into ASCII text?
5. How do I typeset greek with troff/TeX/WP/... ??
 a. TeX/LaTeX
 b. Other typesetting systems
6. Greek fonts into X Windows
7. Backgammon servers [ New - Moved from cultural part ]

Proposed future subjects:
[ Please send me info to stuff these subjects!! -- nfotis]

[any ideas/info/... ??]

==============

I ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file more
complete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything.

YOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not!

======================================================================

1. What is the Soc.Culture.Greek newsgroup??
============================================

a. Newsgroup charter
====================

[ From David Lawrence: ]

soc.culture.greek predates news.groups. The only description that can be
found is:

soc.culture.greek           Newsgroup about Greeks

[ So, we could codify ourselves a 'defacto' charter. Does anyone want to
  submit stuff here? ]


b. Network etiquette
====================
[ Excerpted from Eugene Miya's Draft FAQ in comp.graphics.visualization: ]

We assume you have read news.announce.newusers and that you understand
network informalities.  This group is not moderated, and this is one
experiment in self-moderation (education).

If you have questions, ask you system administrator.  If you are the system
administrator, use MAIL, and ask your net neighbors.

Do not post TESTS here.  Special testing groups exist to acknowledge your
posts.  Test in misc.test, or in your locale: e.g., ba.test, ca.test, na.test,
etc.

Some people believe the charter should be posted.  The name of the group
should sufficiently convey the purpose of this group.

Flame wars: 1) Flame using mail.  Failing that 2) Cut down on the number
of groups in your Newsgroups: line.  3) Use Followup-To: a line with
fewer newsgroups.  Make certain you read all posts before responding, the net
is asynchronous enough as it is: the History of Dumb posts includes such
titles as
"What time is it?"  "The Space Shuttle blew up!" and "California just had an
earthquake."  See your local broadcast news.

Attribution: (Those lines frequently beginning with ">")  MINIMIZE.
Especially: don't post "Me, too" posts after 100 lines of attribution.
Remove especially long sigatures at the bottoms of posts.
Use email.  Show that you are intelligent and net savvy in your postings.
Edit carefully.

[If you feel that the ratio of inflammatory or relevant posts is too high for
 your tastes, go read the manual of your news reader in the section of kill
 files. This way, you can customize your news reader to not bother you with
 messages from certain people, or which contain particular keywords in their
 headers. This way, you can avoid all the headache associated with such posts -
 not a minor thing - nfotis ]

======================================================================

c. How does one receive soc.culture.greek without USENET access??
=================================================================

Send a mail with subject "help post" to soc-culture-greek-request@cs.wisc.edu
or do a "finger scg@cs.wisc.edu"

======================================================================


2. What's needed in order to have Greek characters in my computer?
==================================================================

a. PCs
======

[ The following information applies for AT-like PCs. For PS/2s, things
 are somewhat different, but I don't know many details -- nfotis ]

For english in GENERAL, you will have either a software or hardware solution:

For Monochrome, Hercules, and CGA your only hope is a Greek Chip Character
Generator. It is usually supplied by the Greek PC vendors. If you buy the
PC elsewhere (i.e. in the US) and bring it to Greece, tough.

For EGA/VGA, there are plenty of user-defined fonts around. In Greece,
your vendor will typically supply with one, or there are free versions.
All it really is is the software version of the Character Chip.

In either case, the Greek Characters take over the high bytes (128+)
of the extended ASCII set the PC uses and replace the funny symbols
umlauts, funny puncuation, etc) with Greek letters. In the first case it
is done in hardware, second in software. Then there is a TSR program loaded
at boot time that switches (i.e. ALT-SHIFT toggles between the two.
This program is also supplied by the vendor.

A third SLOW case for CGA/Herc machines is to use SOFT fonts, i.e. characters
done in graphics mode. Extremely slow but inexpensive. A good Shareware
Greek word processor works that way. Details below.

This way you get to type greek to programs like text editors. When the text
is saved (extended or 8 bit text) you'll see the funny characters that
Greek is represented by.

Same deal with printers, i.e. the PRINTER character chip will have the extended
ascii set to include Greek. So when you print a file using DOS print, it will
come up OK. Alternatively, printers that handle soft (downloadable) fonts,
can download the fonts and then you print as usual.

A good word processor for Greek (and many other non english languages) is
INTEXT12. It can be found at various US ftp sites (oak.oakland.edu under
editors directory). Accepts the common denominator (herc/cga) and uses soft
fonts. Works OK for things like letters etc though I would not try anything
like a college thesis with it.

Commercial systems:
For more $$$, you can buy NOTA BENE (i believe) which has a very good Greek
mode for $500 or so. Several small vendors advertise Greek WP systems typically
in the back of, say, PC Magazine or Byte. Prices are in the $150-$500 range.
Also, the WordPerfect distributor here has made a Greek version of the software
and the manuals. PCwrite also does works well with Greek letters.


b. PCs with MS Windows
======================

WinGreek (1.7 is the latest version): Greek-Hebrew Fonts/Accenter/Conv CCAT
for Win3. It's shareware and includes:

-Screen Fonts for Hercules, EGA, VGA & 8514
-Printer fonts for 9pin & 24pin Printers, HP LaserJets & Postscript.
-Utilities for Entering Accents (European Languages & Greek) and
      Converting between File Formats (WinGreek <=CCAT).

New in version 1.8: New Greek Font and New Versions of Utilities.

New in version 1.7: Coptic / Greek / Hebrew TrueType Font for Windows 3.1
                    TrueType For All Printers Supported by Windows 3.1.

author: Peter Gentry <peter@artsci.utoronto.ca>

Several font vendors also supply their own fonts with ATM and TrueType. You can
also use the SYMBOL fonts which looks kind of silly (i.e. troff) but works
if everything else fails.

With the advent of Windows 3.1, the existing problem of printing to
IBM-speaking printers will be eliminated via the downloaded font system.
(The printers here in general know only the old IBM-PC character set, while
the MS Windows had ELOT-928 - you may guess the confusion that arose and
the need for more filters ;-) )



From: Jeff Beneker <beneker@dg-rtp.dg.com>
------------------------------------------
 
 There's a CLASSICS mailing list, for discussing Greek Classics and Latin.
 From this list I got info about Greek fonts on PCs, etc.
 
 [To subscribe on the list, send an e-mail message to
         listserv@uwavm.u.washington.edu
  with the following line on the body of the message:
 
 SUBSCRIBE CLASSICS Your_Real_Name
 ]
 
 [ Be warned: the stuff *is* out of date! I got it last September... - nfotis ]
 
 >From: TSUPXH01@ASNTSU.ASN.NET
 
 For those using Windows 3.1, a Classical Greek font is in the works at
 Monotype -- about one month from publication.  From what I'm told, it will
 be a PS font but not TrueType.  I suggested to them that they create also a
 Latin font that would have macrons.  I think thiskwould make a very
 marketable classical package.  In the meantime, how do Windows users solve
 the macron problem?  I'm using the circumflex vowels in the extended
 C as a sort of makeshift solution.  Maybe a few phone calls to
 Monotype would encourage them to help us out.  Call 1-800-MONOTYPE and express
 your ideas to sales manager Steve Kuhlman.
 
 
 >From: Oliver Phillips <PHILLIPS%UKANVM.BITNET>
 
 Yes, you can run Greek on a an IBM compatible provided it and its
 monitor have VGA capabilities, 386 (perhaps 286) or higher.  I
 run Windows 3.1 (3.0 will do), Word for Windows (hereinafter
 WinWord).  With the Pharos search program came packaged the
 WinGreek Greek and Hebrew fonts, with full diacriticals visible
 on the screen--only one Greek font, however, though suiting
 my needs perfectly.  WinGreek will only work with WinWord
 though can be used independently of Pharos.
 
 Get WinGreek from Peter Gentry at 55 Ambercroft Blvd., Scarborough,
 Ontario, Canada M1W 2z6, peter@artsci.toronto.edu.  $35.00 Yankee
 dollar, as I recall.   Andrew Fountain distibutes it in the UK, but
 I don't have his address.
 
 Get Pharos 0.2 (bundled with WinGreek) by anonymous ftp from
 the University of California at Santa Barbara--but I don't
 have the Internet address.  To get it by smail on disk send
 $15.00 to
 
 Dan Thibodeau
 Department of Classics
 Santa Barbara, CA 93106
 805-893-3556
 
 For ftp instructions contact him at 6500dan@ucsbuxa.bitnet or
 6500dan@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu
 
 [ WinGreek is mentioned elsewhere ]

c. Mac
======

  Simple: Get the machine from Greek dealers! The MacOS is completely
hellenized
(menus, messages, etc.) and basic applications are also hellenized and
available
with Greek font support (eg. MS Word).

In general, you press the left-clover and Space keys to toggle
between Greek and English keyboard.

  The 'left-clover' key  is known in the Mac community as 'Command'
key. The trick should also work with the right Command-key on the Apple
Extended Keyboard. What happens when you do this is that you toggle the
'Keyboard' cdev (control device) from english to the local language. This
resides in the System Folder, and in theory you could rotate between more
than two keyboard mappings--e.g., greek, english, german and spanish. With
system 7 there is the inherent capability to include all available
'Keyboard' resources in a menu on the right side of the menu-bar of the
Finder, so that one could change the current setting easily. This has not
yet been fully implemented. If and when it does it will not affect the
individual application resources, in other words applications that are not
hellenized will not automatically become so.

From what I know, the Greek Apple dealers use a special set of ROMs,
soooo... they may put such a set on your machine, but not for free!

d. Amiga
=========

Amiga: there was a half-hearted attempt to implement Greek character sets
in the upper 128 positions. I don't know the current status of affairs in
this matter.

[ A netter offered his additions : ]
The Amiga always supported different fonts. I always write my greek letters
in a symbol font. But there are programs that support Adobe fonts and import
fonts from the MAC and IBM line of computers.
On top of that it is very easy to edit your own font.
Using most terminal programs is a question of selecting a menu entry and
you can get a diffrent font display on screen. Amiga also supports LaTex,
Postcript.
Also on a final note the latest version of the operating system (2.1?) you
can select the language you want and the Menu entries occur in the language
you wish (Translated not just change of fonts), easy script files can be
written and a click of a function key and you can swap between fonts.
So in general all Word processors, text editors, in fact all software
supports Greek ....

e. Atari: 
=========
[ From: likos@clinet.fi (Johannis Likos) ]

[ For further details about Greek on Atari or about 
  'Human Aided Machine Translation' (computerized translation
  of documents [ASCII text files] from/to Greek to/from other 
  European languages), contact him at the address:

  Johannis Likos 
  Rusthollarintie 13 F 46
  FIN-00910 Helsinki
  Finland  ]

A. Keyboard Layout
------------------
 
 GREEK20B.ACC
 Accessory made by Gizis & Statharas for all
 Ataris with TOS 1.4 and can be purchased from the 
 'Atari Club' in Athina/Pireas or from 'Soft Support' in
 Thessaloniki.
 This Accessory emulates somehow Greek typewriter by using
 SHIFT, ALTERNATE and CONTROL keys in various combinations
 in order to switch between Latin and Greek characters.
 Additionally accented (tonoumena) and/or umlauted (dialytika)
 small and capital characters are supported.
 It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030.
 Use only G+Plus as GDOS driver.
 
 FSWITCH 2.0
 Accessory distributed by 'The ST Club' in UK is
 made for Ataris with TOS 1.4 and it supports even oriental
 Keyboards (writing from right to left).
 It is very useful for companies in Greece and Cyprus, which
 are making business with the Arab world in North Africa and
 in Middle East.
 The Greek keyboard file for FSWITCH 2.0 you can get either
 from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit it yourself.
 By using key combinations (ALT, SHIFT, etc.) can be switched
 between Greek, Latin and Arab (also Persian and Hebrew).
 It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030.
 
 HARLEKIN 3.0
 Accessory distributed by 'Maxon GmbH' in Germany
 and the latest release is made for all TOS versions.
 So far it uses only UNSHIFTED, SHIFTED and CAPS LOCK and
 therefore it doesn't conflict with MultiTOS and/or AES 4.0
 and many various keyboard modules can be re-loaded.
 The Greek keyboard module for HARLEKIN 3.0 you can get 
 either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit it yourself.
 
B. Screen Fonts
---------------
 
 GREEK20B.ACC
 Accessory made by Gizis & Statharas for all
 Ataris with TOS 1.4 and can be purchased from the 
 'Atari Club' in Athina/Pireas or from 'Soft Support' in
 Thessaloniki.
 This Accessory includes 6x6 icon fonts 8x8 screen fonts
 for ST colour (color) resolutions and 8x16 screen fonts
 for ST monochrome resolution with 8-bit Greek IBM characters.
 It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030.
 Use only G+Plus as GDOS driver.
 
 FSWITCH 2.0
 Accessory distributed by 'The ST Club' in UK is
 made for Ataris with TOS 1.4 preferrably in monochrome mode.
 The Greek screen font files for FSWITCH 2.0 you can get 
 either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit them yourself.
 It is not recommended for MultiTOS and/or Falcon030.
 
 HARLEKIN 3.0
 Accessory distributed by 'Maxon GmbH' in Germany
 and the latest release is made for all TOS versions.
 The Greek screen fonts module for HARLEKIN 3.0 you can get 
 either from me (likos@clinet.fi) or you edit it yourself.
 
 MultiTOS 1.0
 (MiNT & Multitasking AES 4.x) can use alternative
 Greek screen fonts in GDOS format by defining the AE_FONTID 
 in the GEM.CNF file.
 
 SIGNUM 3.0
 Application, distributed by 'Application Systems
 Heidelberg GmbH' in Germany contains an application-specific
 Classic Greek (APXAIA) font set for Theology students.
 
 CALAMUS N/S/SL
 Greek (PKS) Editor window (8x16 pixel).
 For further details, please, contact me (likos@clinet.fi). 
 
C. Printer Fonts (HP-DeskJet/LaserJet/PaintJet, SLM-406/605/804)
----------------
 
 Diablo630 bitmapped GDOS fonts for Greek 8-bit ASCII text
 only for Atari laser printers with DMA port, such as SLM804.
 
 FontGDOS
 bitmapped GDOS fonts for Greek GEM-Metafile output.
 
 G+Plus
 is the only FontGDOS compatible driver, which works
 propperly with GREEK20B.ACC, because FontGDOS, SpeedoGDOS
 or AMCGDOS with GREEK20B.ACC will cause boot problems.
 
 SIGNUM 3.0
 Application, distributed by 'Application Systems
 Heidelberg GmbH' in Germany, contains an application-specific
 Classic Greek (polytonic) font upto 300/360 dpi in a special
 font library collection (maybe PD or shareware?!).
 
 CALAMUS N/S/SL
 has more than five application-specific 
 Greek (monotonic) font families with upto 2540 dpi output 
 resolution on phototypesetters (Linotronic, etc.).
 I have some self-made, if you need then contact me 
 (likos@clinet.fi).
 
 PageStream 2.2
 uses Adobe Type 1 font technology and all you
 need are the AFM and BFM files for the 7-bit Symbol font set
 with math symbols and Greek characters in Times/Roman style.
 
 SpeedoGDOS
 uses Bitstream FaceLift font technology and all 
 you need is the SPD file for the 7-bit Symbol font set with 
 math symbols and Greek characters in Swiss/Helvetica style.
 It is so far the best Scalable Font Technology on Atari
 comparable to TrueType on Windows.
 Any text size in a GEM-Metafile can be displayed on screen
 or printed on paper.
 
 MultiTeX 5.1
 on Atari is using only the standard Greek
 characters as math symbols but not as plain text.
 The problem of accents, spirits, hyphenation and other
 Greek language-specific topics are still unsolved.
 So, if someone has any solution for modern Greek (monotonic)
 or even ancient Greek (polytonic) on other platforms, please,


 contact me (likos@clinet.fi), to find out how much work is 
 to be done for porting it to Atari's TeX environment.
 
D. Font Editors
---------------
 
 FontKitPlus 3.4
 distributed by 'The ST Club' in UK, offers
 the possibility to edit screen fonts and printer fonts.
 It contains many features, such as re-scaling of bitmapped
 fonts for other output devices.
 The resulting screen fonts can be used either with FSWITCH
 or with MultiTOS or with other GDOS conform applications.
 
 METAFONT
 for Atari's TeX (MultiTeX 5.1)
 
 SIGNUM 3.0
 Application, distributed by 'Application Systems
 Heidelberg GmbH' in Germany, contains an application-specific
 font editor in order to design your own bitmapped font style
 for screen and printer devices.
 
 DMC
 TypeArt/FontEdit and Didot Accessory for creating
 application-specific scalable fonts for CALAMUS N/S/SL.

[ Attention:
  Some of the above mentioned products concerning Greek and Atari
  are either commercial or authorware or shareware or public 
  domain or protected by other copyright or copyleft agreements. ]


f. Other
========

[ Other machines?? Anyone who knows more here?? -- nfotis ]

======================================================================

3. Internet/BITNET/UUCP University sites in Greece?
===================================================

Note: If you don't know how to access eg. a machine in BITNET while
you're on the InterNet, call your sysadmins for help. I summarize here
the most aften asked question:

Q: I want to contact a person in , eg. GRPATVX1 in BITNET. How do I send
        mail to user@GRPATVX1 ?
A: Send the mail via a BITNET-InterNet gateway site, eg. via rice.edu as:
        user%GRPATVX1.BITNET@rice.edu
  Another good guess is a BITNET site close to the national BITNET gateway, eg.
        user%GRPATVX1.BITNET@ariadne.csi.forth.gr (via the Greek Inet gateway)

Similarly for registered Greek UUCP sites, use:

        user%site.uucp@ariadne.csi.forth.gr

I want to stress that this is a usual *kludge* (ie. de facto usage). Don't
expect a BITNET site to use exactly these conventions. Use FAX/Phone to make an
initial contact with the sysadmins or the person you want to contact.

a. InterNet sites
=================

Use your nameservers to find actual IP numbers! Also note that
atlas.cti.gr (150.140.2.3) is the gateway to Patras Univ.

From: petrides@ecst.csuchico.edu (Georgios Petrides)
--------------------------------

Officially registered Second Level domains under gr

Academic domains:
----------------
Univ. of Thessaloniki
auth.gr                 345600  IN      NS      aliakmon.cperi.forth.gr

Democretion University of Thrace
duth.gr                 345600  IN      NS      minos.cc.uch.gr

National Technical Univ. of Athens
ntua.gr                 86400   IN      NS      theseas.ntua.gr

Univ. of Crete
uch.gr                  345600  IN      NS      cyprus.csd.uch.gr
ucr.gr                  345600  IN      NS      minos.cc.uch.gr

Technica Ekpedeutika Idrymata
tei.gr                  172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr

Technical Univ of Chania
tuc.gr                  86400   IN      NS      omalos.ced.tuc.gr

Research Center/ Technology Parks' domains:
------------------------------------------
forth.gr                345600  IN      NS      terpsi.csi.forth.gr
techpath.gr             172800  IN      NS      aliakmon.cperi.forth.gr

Network organization domains:
-----------------------------
ariadne-t.gr            172800  IN      NS      isosun.ariadne-t.gr
y-net.gr                172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr

Company networks:
----------------
ambit.gr                172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr
eetaa.gr                86400   IN      PTR     0.177.107.192.in-addr.arpa
elsypnet.gr             172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr
intracom.gr             172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr
intranet.gr             86400   IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.GR
knossos.gr              172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr

Amateur networks:
----------------
fdnet.gr                172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr
fidonet.gr              172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr
intlnet.gr              172800  IN      NS      ariadne.csi.forth.gr


University of Cyprus
--------------------
user@jupiter.cca.ucy.cy

Greek Anonymous FTP site
------------------------
ftp  ariadne.csi.forth.gr

login : anonymous
passwd: e-mail address
 
Info from Stelios Sartzetakis (stelios@ariadne.csi.forth.gr>:

>I'm the network manager of the Internet gateway to Greece
>here in Heraklio-Crete at FORTH (see documentation at anon
>ftp ariadne.csi.forth.gr under ~ftp/FORTH/ICS/PROFILE)
>
>The Internet connected sites in Greece is mainly academic
>and R&D departments of some companies.
>
>There is a fidonet gateway machine in Thessaloniki, which is
>connected to us (more info dimitris@cperi.forth.gr)
>
>more info from the managers of the various domains under .gr
>(postmaster@ntua.gr for example for the National Technical
>Univ of Athens etc.)

There's also an X.25 network called network ARIADNE. The network is based
at NRC Demokritos, and they are gatewayed to the InterNet via the machine
leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.2.1]. NTUA has also a connection to this
network via PADs.
In the machine isosun.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.1.1] there's also an
account "pythia" (no passwd), which runs a BBS-like information system
about the ARIADNE network.

b. BITNET/EARN sites
====================

I have found an article from schmuck@rhrk.uni-kl.de (Karl Schmuck [Bib])
last November, which described the results of a search in the
bitearn-database at listserv@dearn.bitnet.
I have edited it somewhat, but I left (I hope) all the necessary information
inside. Note that some of these machines have also InterNet addresses
(at least for mail)

/* here's his query */
> sel * in bitearn where country contains gr
--> Database BITEARN, 12 hits.

Node: ARIADNE
Internet: ariadne.csi.forth.gr
Nodedesc: FORTH-Computer Science Institute
P_dakosmid: Damianos Kosmidis;Damian@ariadne;+30 81 229302,229368
P_dkosmidi: Damianos Kosmidis;Damian@ariadne;+30 81 221171,229368
P_ssartzet: Stelios Sartzetakis;STELIOS@ARIADNE;+30 81 229302,221171
Netop: p_dakosmid
Useradm: p_ssartzet
Phone: +30 81 229302
Fax: +30 81 229342

Node: GRATHDEM
A_member: Computer Center;153 10 Agia Paraskeuei Attikis;Athens Greece
Admin: p_akostopo
Dir: p_aarvilia
Nodedesc: EKEFE-Demokritos
P_aarvilia: ALEXIS ARVILIAS;AMBER@GRATHDEM
P_akostopo: A. Kostopoulos;KOSTOP@GRATHDEM

Node: GRATHUN1
A_member: University of Athens,;Computer Center,  Building T.Y.P.A;University
Campus;Ilissia, Athens, Greece
Admin: p_sgrathun
Dir: p_svanakar
Nodedesc: University of Athens
P_sgrathun: STAVROS GRATHUN1;STAVROS@GRATHUN1;+30 1 7226895
P_svanakar: Stavros Vanakaris;STAVROS@GRATHUN1;+30 1 7248470
P_00000001: STAVROS;STAVROS@GRATHUN1
P_00000004: INSTALL;INSTALL@GRATHUN1
Netop: p_00000004

Node: GRCRUN11
Nodedesc: University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece
P_operator: Operator;OPERATOR@GRCRUN11;+30 81 232156 ext.26
P_ptzortza: P. Tzortzakis;POSTMAST@GRCRUN11;+30 81 232357
P_00000001: POSTMAST;POSTMAST@GRCRUN11
Netop: p_operator
Useradm: p_ptzortza

Node: GRCRVAX1
A_member: University of Crete;Ampelokipi;Heraklion, Crete;Greece
Admin: p_jfragiad
Dir: p_jfragiad
Nodedesc: University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece
P_jfragiad: J. Fragiadakis;JFRAGIAD@GRCRVAX1;+30 81 232357
Netop: p_operator
Internet: minos.cc.uch.gr

Node: GREARN
A_member: Research Center of Crete;P.O. Box 527;Heraklion, Crete;Greece
Admin: p_ptzortza
Dir: p_sorphano
Internet: grearn.csi.forth.gr
Nodedesc: Foundation of Research and Technology Hellas
P_operator: Operator;OPERATOR@GREARN;+30 81 232156 ext.26
P_ptzortza: P. Tzortzakis;PANTELIS@GREARN;+30 81 232357
P_sorphano: S. Orphanoudakis;ORPHICS@GREARN;+30 81 210057
P_00000001: POSTMAST;POSTMAST@GREARN
Netop: p_operator

Node: GRGBOX
Internet: grgbox.csi.forth.gr
Nodedesc: FORTH-Computer Science Institute
P_00000001: Pantelis Tzortzakis pantelis;Pantelis Tzortzakis
pantelis@grearn.bitnet
P_00000002: Pantelis Tzortzakis   Pantelis;Pantelis Tzortzakis  
Pantelis@Grearn.bitnet +30 81 232357
Techinfo: p_00000001
Useradm: p_00000001 p_00000002
Phone: +30 81 232357
Fax: +30 81 239735

Node: GRIMBB
Nodedesc: Institute of Molecular Biology and Biotechnology
P_00000001: SYSTEM;SYSTEM@GRIMBB
Useradm: p_00000001
Internet: Nefelh.cc.uch.gr

Node: GRIOANUN
A_member: University Campus;Dourouti;GR 45110 Ioannina; GREECE
Admin: p_paslanis
Dir: p_sdanielo


Member: UNiversity of Ioannina
P_paslanis: Panos J. Aslanis;UOIC02@GRIOANUN;30-651-91298
P_sdanielo: Stylianos Danielopoulos;E270A01@GRIOANUN;30-651-91807
P_00000003: CDCE;CDCE@GRIOANUN
Netop: p_00000003

Node: GRPATEI
Nodedesc: Technological Institute  of Patra
Phone: 30 61  347778
P_1: Marios Xatziprokopiou;manager@grpatei;+30 61 347778
Site: Technological Education Institute of Patra
A_site: TEI Patras;Koukouli Patra;Greece
Dir: P_1
Admin: P_1
Techinfo: P_1
Useradm: P_2
P_2: ;postmast@grpatei
P_mxatzipr: Marios Xatziprokopiou;manager@grpatei;+30 61 347778
P_mzatzipr: Marios Xatziprokopiou;manager@grpatei;+30 61 347778
P_postmast: ;postmast@grpatei

Node: GRPATVX1
A_member: P.O. BOX 1122, 26110 Patras, Greece
Admin: p_kkaranas
Dir: p_thadzila
Member: University of Patras
Nodedesc: Computer Technology Institute, Univ. of Patras, GREECE
P_kkaranas: Kostas Karanasios;NETMGR@GRPATVX1;+30 61 993176
P_ngrpatvx: NETMGR GRPATVX1;NETMGR@GRPATVX1;+30 61 993176
P_thadzila: Prof. Thanasis  Hadzilacos;THH@GRPATVX1;+30 61 993176
Netop: p_ngrpatvx

Node: GRTHEUN1
Internet: ossa.ccf.auth.gr (155.207.1.2)
A_member: Aristotelion University;Computer Center;Thessaloniki Greece
Admin: p_mgrtheun
Dir: p_pargyrak
Nodedesc: University of Thessaloniki
P_mgrtheun: MAINT GRTHEUN1;MAINT@GRTHEUN1;+30 31 992843
P_pargyrak: Panos Argyrakis;CACZ11@GRTHEUN1
P_00000003: OPERATOR;OPERATOR@GRTHEUN1
Netop: p_00000003

c. UUCP sites
=============

[ I found a map of UUCP sites in Greece in rtfm.mit.edu:
/pub/usenet/comp.mail.maps. Here follows an edited listing:
(I removed obviously out of date entries, because the last update was
at 19 Feb '91 -- you can route mail to any of these sites through ariadne) ]

ariadne:
(IP gateway also): ariadne.uucp = ARIADNE.BITNET
Check above for details about ariadne (in the IP nodes list).

aello:
Dimitris Hatzopoulos, postmaster@aello.uucp, +30 31 269346,
121 Tsimiski Street, GR-546 21  Thessaloniki, Greece
FidoNet nodes 2:410/1 2:410/0 2:41/0 - Network Host system for Greece.
This is a FidoNet <-> UUCP/Internet gateway site serving the FidoNet
nodes of Greece.  (FidoNet Region 41 - Network 410)

algo:
Algosystems sa
Dimitris Verikios, veri@algo.uucp, +30 1 9330551, 9345858, x9352873,
Sygrou 183, Athens, Greece 17121.
Systems Integrators specialized in UNIX and Networks
SCO, EXCELAN, CABLETRON, DYNATECH and TATUNG distributor.

cmsu:
National Technical University of Athens
George Vlontakis, george@cmsu.uucp, +30 1 7757401,
Pathsivn 42, Athens, GREECE

ctc:
Computer Technologies Company (ctc)
Sakis Psonis, Melanippi Chryssoulaki, postmaster@ctc.uucp, +30 1 6550574,
x6570676,
452, Mesogion Avenue, 153 42 - Athens, GREECE

dias:
Computer Technology Institute (cti)
Kostas Karanasios, netmgr@ermhs.uucp, +30 61 993176, x991909,
P.O. Box 1122, 261 10 Patras, Greece
dias.uucp == GRPATVX1.BITNET; CTI's Network Mail Gateway to EARN
Connected via GREARN; Help : postmaster@cti.gr

eetaa:
Hellenic Agency for Development & Local Government sa
postmaster@athina.uucp, +30 1 3646937,
Solonos 10, 10672, Athens, Greece

elsyp:
Hellenic Information Systems sa
Savvidis S. Dimitrios, Matzarakis Dimitrios, postmaster@elsyp.uucp,
+30 1 6820020, 6820017, x6811555, Kifisias 16, Marousi, Athens 151 25, Greece

epstech:
Epsion Software
Akis Fytas, akis@epstech.uucp, +30 1 9421707, 9427719,
377 Syngrou Avenue, P. Faliro, GR-17564, Athens, Greece
Software House specialized in XENIX/UNIX applications

ermhs:
Computer Technology Institute (cti)
(read dias' entry above)
CTI's Network Mail Gateway to EUnet; Help : postmaster@cti.gr

evelyn:
BetaTech Engineering Associates
Sotiris Vassilopoulos, postmaster@evelyn.uucp, +30 1 9912570, x9953378,
Al. Ikonomou 4, 167 77 - Helleniko, Greece

gget:
General Secretariat of Research & Technology
Dimitrios Papaioannou, Marinos Skolarikos, dpap@mrtath.uucp, msko@mrtath.uucp
[ mrtath does not exist anymore ]
+30 1 7714162, 14-18 Mesogeion Avenue, Athens 115 10, GREECE

intra:
Intrasoft sa, Res & Dev Department
Vassilis Kolias, vassilis@intra.uucp, +30 1 7751158, 7701692(int.50), x7782444,
2 Messogion Str., Athens Tower, 11527 Athens, Greece

sirius:
Technical University of Crete, Lab of Dynamic Systems and Simulation
Vangelis Voudourakis, vangelis@mira.uucp, +30 821 20898,
Ag. Markou st., Chania, Crete, Greece 73132

statik:
Ntua, Institute of Structural Analysis and Aseismic Research
Vlasis Koumousis, Panos Georgiou, postmaster@statik.uucp, +30 1 7784603,
x7784603,
Heroon Polytecneiou, Zografou, Athens, 157 73, GREECE

sungr:
Atko sa
Tasos Pikounis, Kostas Matrozos, tpik@sungr.uucp, ksyr@sungr.uucp,
+30 1 7785950, 7784967, x7798849, 74 Mesogeion Ave., Athens 153 42, GREECE

vergina:
Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Thessaloniki
Dimitris Mitrakos, Michael Strintzis, postmaster@vergina.UUCP, +30 31 219784
219783,
Thessaloniki 54006, Greece
Greek Academic Research Network ARIADNEt address (X.25) 1310010003

omalos:
Technical University of Crete, Chania
Manolis Fragonikolakis, fm@omalos.uucp, +30 821 64846,
Ag. Markou st., Chania, Crete, Greece 73132

xanthi:
Democritus University of Thrace
Christos Chamzas, chamzas@xanthi.uucp, +30 541 26478,
Xanthi, Greece GR 67100

cteam:
COMPTUTER TEAM sa
VALI LALIOTI, vali@cteam.uucp, +30 31 548012, 535312, 546547, FAX 544844
Karatasou 7, THessaloniki, Greece 546 26
Systems Integrators specialized in AIX and Networks (NOVELL)
Development of Software aplications in AIX, DOS, NOVELL
IBM PS/2, NOVELL, RISC 6000, INTERMEC distributor

lesbos:
Panayiotis Papachiou, pnp@lesbos.uucp postmaster@lesbos.uucp, +30 251 26981
G. Kortesi 73, Kallithea, Mytilene, Greece 81100

ach:
Apple Center Heraklio
Maria Troullinou, postmaster@ach.uucp, +30 81 242080,
Crysostomou 26, Heraklion, Crete, Greece 71110

ambit:
Ambit Ltd
John Kozatsas, postmaster@ambit.uucp, +30 1 9950152
5, Polemistwn str. GR-164 52 Argyroupolis, Athens


d. Internet providers
=====================
[ Only one at this point. I hope to see more! ]

There's an X.25 network called network ARIADNE. The network is based
at NRC Demokritos, and they are gatewayed to the InterNet via the machine
leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.2.1].

In the machine isosun.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr [143.233.1.1] there's also an
account "pythia" (no passwd), which runs a BBS-like information system
about the ARIADNE network.

The ariadne-t.gr people run a 12-line dial-up service also, which provides
e-mail and ftp/telnet (USENET planned in the future). Here are the data:
(Current fee is 5,900 Drs. / 3 months, last I heard, and they charge
 for disk space above 500Kbytes - up to 2 MBytes quota is available )

CONTACTS WITH ARIADNE'S ADMINISTRATION
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Telephone : +30 1 6515224
            +30 1 6513392
            +30 1 6536351

Fax       : +30 1 6532910

Address   : N.R.C.P.S. Demokritos Ag.Paraskevi (ARIADNE Network)
                       15310
                       Athens
                       Greece

E-mail   : * BITNET   : POSTMAST@GRATHDEM , AMBER@GRATHDEM
           * INTERNET : postmaster@isosun.ariadne-t.gr
           * X.400    :
S=postmaster;OU=isosun;O=ariadne-t;PRMD=ariadne-t;C=gr;^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
* Dr. A.Arvillias (Network Administrator)
  ---------------------------------------
   Telephone : +30 1 6515224
   Fax       : +30 1 6532175
   E-mail (Internet) : arvilias@isosun.ariadne-t.gr

* Dr. G.Korovesis (Technical Net. Administrator)
  ----------------------------------------------
   Telephone : +30 1 6513392
   Fax       : +30 1 6532175
   E-mail (Internet) : ycor@isosun.ariadne-t.gr
          (X.400)    : S=corovesis;OU=isosun;O=ariadne-t;PRMD=ariadne-t;C=gr

* P.Telonis (Internet Support)
  -----------------------------
   Telephone : +30 1 6513392
   E-mail (Internet) : ttel@leon.nrcps.ariadne-t.gr

* V.Georgiou (User Support)
  -------------------------
   Telephone : +30 1 6513392
   E-mail (Internet) : vgeor@isosun.ariadne-t.gr

* T.Drigas (Network Operational Manager)
  --------------------------------------
   Telephone : +30 1 6536351
   E-mail (Internet) : drigas@isosun.ariadne-t.gr

DATABASE           IXI ADDRESS
--------           -----------

ECHO               2043703004
EUROCOM            204372500002


======================================================================




4. What standards exist for inclusion of Greek characters into ASCII text?
==========================================================================

NOTE: The greek typewriter character set is (assuming you follow the
Greek alphabet):

     a b g d e z h u i k l m n j o p r s t y f x c v

and `w' (lower-case only) is final sigma.

Also there are accents and diaeresis marks in Greek. Your keyboard driver
should provide for those special characters.
[I don't know if it's a standard (I think so, I never saw a mention)]

For 7-bit transmission: there's an ELOT standard, but we don't bother with it,
since we use always 8-bit ASCII (at least between us).

For 8-bit characters, there are various standards:
[ "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to
   choose from..", Andrew Tanenmbaum  >:-> ]

ELOT-928
--------
It was assigned an ISO number(ISO8859-7), so its an
international and official standard.
Here in NTUA, we use it in our Unix machines (because it didn't
interfere with 'vi' metacharacters, as I was told ;-) )
Notice that this standard concerns ONLY the storage of 8-bit text files,
ie. it doesn't bother with keyboard mapping, etc. Besides the character
encodings, it provides also an escape sequence when you're switching
to/from it.

IBM 437
-------
The de-facto standard: IBM PC character set [ 437 ]. The dealers
settled early enough on a standard 8-bit ASCII set for both Greek and
English letters.
Unfortunately, they didn't standardize on the combination of keys that
was necessary to activate the TSR programs, etc. It's a simple matter to
make a program that converts between the ELOT-928 and this format and
vice versa (in fact, we use such a program to transfer Greek files
between UNIX and PCs).

IBM PS/2 [ Which codepage??]
--------
When IBM introduced PS/2s, there was a provision for Greek letters in
their character sets. Unfortunately, in their infinite wisdom, they decided
to make it incompatible with the existing standards, either the de-facto
IBM or the ELOT-928. So the term IBM-compatible took a new meaning
(sarcasm indended). In any case, I suppose there are converters between
these character sets.

Mac:
----
YAS (Yet Another Standard). The programmer who wants to use Greek
letters in his program, faces a strange character set (as told by others).
As a user, because you're buying from one source, there's no big trouble.
There's at least one converter between all these formats (Chameleon), but
I don't have recent news here.
Note: Apple had 2 different versions of the Greek alphabet implemented, so
be sure to get the latest ROM revisions if you want to run a hellenized
application.

Atari:
------
 [ From: likos@clinet.fi (Johannis Likos) ]
 
 Some solutions described above are either Greek IBM graphic
 character set compatible or YAUS (Yet Another Undocumented 
 Standard).
 For this matter I have programmed my own conversion tools for
 known chaotic standards.   

 Is anyone working on the Greek Unicode (2-Byte Character Code)?

[ Others?? ]

======================================================================

5. How do I write greek with troff/TeX/WP/... ??
================================================

a. TeX/LaTeX
============

From: Dimitrios FILIPPOU <filippou@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca>

TYPESETTING GREEK DOCUMENTS BY TeX/LaTeX:
=========================================

The following paragraphs contain some information of how to typeset
Greek with TeX (and the most favourite macro package: LaTeX).  The
information which is presented here is by-no-means complete.  It is
also possible that some TeX-nicians or TeX-istorians will find
errors.  In any case, the following text provides some information on

    (i) complete Greek TeX/LaTeX packages, 

   (ii) Greek fonts for TeX (this is mainly for the few ones who like
        to play with METAFONT), and

  (iii) where one may seek help in case he has problems to typeset 
        Greek with TeX (or LaTeX).


(1) "FREE" GREEK TeX PACKAGES:

There are two "free" ("free" means available by anonymous "ftp") TeX
packages for typesetting Greek by TeX/LaTeX.  These are:

  (i) Yiannis Moschovakis' (UCLA, Los Angeles, USA) "greektex" 
      (ver. 2.0?), and 

 (ii) Kostis Dryllerakis' (Imperial College, London, UK) "GreekTeX" 
      (ver. 3.1). 

[The names of these packages are identical.  We play with small and
capital letters -- "greektex" vs. "GreekTeX" -- in order to
distinguish the one from the other.]

   Both these packages include a number of 8-bit fonts (regular --
i.e., the Greek equivalent of "roman" --, slanted, typewriter, etc.)
and macros for typesetting Greek with either plain TeX or LaTeX.
Being accompanied by "filters" for character translation, they can be
used under UNIX or DOS to typeset modern/ancient, uni-/multi-accent
Greek.  

   However, each of these packages was originally created under
different oper. system and hence, Moschovakis' package is more
friendly to use on a DOS machine (it allows the user to type in Greek
or Latin directly), while Dryllerakis' package is more convenient for
UNIX running machines (at some UNIX running machines you may not be
able to edit a document with Greek characters encoded at ASCII > 127).
Perhaps, Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX" would be also the best choice for 
someone who wants to typeset Greek text by TeX on a Mac machine.

   Moschovakis' fonts include the basic Latin characters at their
original posistions (ASCII below 127).  Contrary to this, Dryllerakis'
fonts do not include any Latin characters, but only Greek ones. For
that reason, people who want to avoid duplicating the font files in
their disks, they should go for Dryllerakis' package.  We would 
recommend Moschovakis' package to those who want to typeset entirely
(or almost entirely) Greek texts by TeX on their DOS machine.
Dryllerakis' package seems to be the best choice for those who want to
typeset Latin texts with not much of Greek (editing something for
Greek output may be a nightmare with Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX", unless
you can make use of "filters").  It is also possible that Dryllerakis'
package is more compatible with the New Font Selection Scheme (NFSS),
the soon(?)-to-come-out LaTeX ver. 3.0 and the new generation of DC
fonts (which have already started replacing the CM fonts of D. Knuth
in European sites).

 [ Added by Kostas Dryllerakis: ]

 In order to accomodate all greek accents, breathings, letters and their
 combinations a full 256 greek font is needed.  The use of filters to
 transform from one character set to the other helps keep the tex fonts
 away from any machibe dependency. With the correct filter you can use it
 on any font encoding scheme and therefore on any machine without changing
 the fonts themselves. For the GreekTeX package an experimental version that
 works under NFSS does exist, but I will wait until the release of the
 new LaTeX in order to release it.

   Moschovakis' "greektex" is available by "ftp" from:

    math.ucla.edu (128.97.4.254);
      dir: pub/moschovakis/greektex

    ftp.uni-stuttgart.de (129.69.1.12);
      dir: soft/tex/languages/greek/moschovakis

    TeX.ac.uk (134.151.40.18);
      dir: TEX-ARCHIVE.LANGS.GREEK.MOSCHOVAKIS
      ATTENTION: some *.EXE, or *.COM files have not been archived at
                 this site!

and Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX" is available by "ftp" from:

    laotzu.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.2.9);
      dir: public/tex

    ftp.tex.ac.uk (134.151.44.19); 
      dir: pub/archive/fonts/greek/kd

    sol.cs.ruu.nl (131.211.80.17);
      dir: pub/TEX/FONTS
      file: kdgreek3.1.tar.Z

    (No North American "ftp" site has been found to have archived this
    package.) 

   It's also certain that, at the University of Patras and the 
University of Crete in Greece, there have been created and installed
some other Greek TeX packages.  Unfortunately, these "very Greek" TeX
packages can not be traced as they do not exist at any "ftp" site.


(2) "FREE" GREEK FONTS FOR TeX:

The first family of Greek fonts for TeX was created sometime in the
mid-80s (when TeX's version was still below 3.0) by Sylvio Levy
(Princeton University, New Jersey, USA).  This was a 7-bit font family
of the Didot kind (Didot is a famous Parisian firm of printers which
developed originally the Greek regular font used today extensively by
Greek printers) and included "regular" (that is the Didot equivalent
of the roman type for Latin alphabets; in Greek they are known as
"apla"), slanted, bold, and typewriter fonts.  The METAFONT source
code of these fonts is still available by "ftp" from

     princeton.edu (128.112.128.1);
       dir: pub

     ymir.claremont.edu (134.173.4.23);
       dir: TEX.BABEL.GREEK.LEVY

(don't rush to grab them though -- read below!)

   Yannis Haralambous (Villeneuve d'Ascq, France) subsequently created
his own Didot family of Greek fonts which looks the same as Levy's
one, but uses an 8-bit coding scheme.  It contains five typefaces:
Didot "regular", slanted, bold, typewriter, "italics" (the "italics" are
kind of pseudo-italics based on the math Greek character set of the
TeX Computer Modern) and small-caps.  Within the small-caps of
Haralambous, you will find some extra characters such as digamma,
sampi, qoppa, etc., which are useful in writting Greek numerals.  The
METAFONT sources are available by "ftp" from 

    ymir.claremont.edu (134.173.4.23); 
      dir: TEX.BABEL.GREEK.YANNIS

(again: don't rush to grab them -- read below!)

   In the time between Levy's and Haralambous' works, Brian Hamilton
Kelly (Royal Military College of Science, Swindon, UK) also presented
a family of Greek fonts.  Apparently these fonts ("roman", "italic",
bold and typewriter) were created out of the Greek characters of
TeX's Computer Modern math fonts.  As their author says, these fonts
won't work for multi-accent modern/ancient Greek; they'll do the job
only for the uni-accent modern Greek.  In any case, their METAFONT
sources are available by "ftp" from 

   ymir.claremont.edu (134.173.4.23); 
     dir: TEX.BABEL.GREEK.HAMILTON_KELLY

   Yiannis Moschovakis and Kostis Dryllerakis picked up the fonts
and the "kind-of-primitive" TeX macros of Levy and Haralambous and
created their Greek TeX packages.  In fact, Moschovakis in his latest
version of "greektex" has included Greek sans-serif fonts.  Moreover,
Moschovakis has created his own "experimental italics" (kind of


"more-slanted-than-slanted" letters) which are quite different from
the ones included in Dryllerakis' "GreekTeX" (Dryllerakis' italics are
the same as Haralambous' ones).  FOR THOSE WHO HAVE ALREADY PICKED UP,
OR THEY ARE GOING TO PICK UP ONE OF THESE TWO GREEK TeX PACKAGES,
THERE'S NO NEED TO BOTHER WITH THE ORIGINAL FONTS OF LEVY, HARALAMBOUS
OR HAMILTON KELLY.



(3) OTHER COMMERCIAL GREEK FONTS FOR TeX:

SCHOLAR TeX (tm) [registered trademark of Yannis Haralambous] includes
fonts for modern Greek, ancient classical Greek, ancient epigraphical
Greek and ("in the near future", according to the author) Byzantine
Greek.  It also includes fonts for a number of other non-Latin
alphabets: Arabic, old Turkish, Persian, Urdu, Malay, Armenian, etc.

    Its price is:  US$200 for individuals; US$100 additional for
METAFONT (MF) sources; and US$500 for institutions (includes MF
sources).  For orders or more information, you can contact:  

                        Yannis Haralambous
                        101/11 rue Breughel,
                        59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq,
                        France

                e-mail: yannis@gat.citilille.fr
                fax:    +33 20.91.05.64

(You must specify to the author of SCHOLAR TeX, what is the oper.
system where you intend to use his product.)

   Finally, C. Mylonas and R. Whitney have created Greek fonts for TeX 
of the Times-Elsevier style, which is very different to the Didot
style.  Their work, which has been published in the TUGboat (vol. 13,
no. 1, pp. 39-49), looks as being the most complete one ever done on
Greek characters (360 characters in total!)  Nonetheless, these fonts
are not (yet?) available for distribution or sale.



(4) CONTACTING THE GREEK TeX COMMUNITY:

Most of the fonts, macros, and packages that were described in the
previous paragraphs have been created by people who have showed much
enthusiasm on typesetting Greek by TeX, but without any intention of
making money out of this story.  Their work is available to public for
free, but it can not be guaranteed that it is error-free or that
everything will be OK under any "TeX-ing circumstances".  

   If you are facing problems with using/typesetting Greek with TeX,
or if you have new ideas about this subject, you may join the ELLHNIKA
list.  To do this, just send an e-mail message to 

            LISTSERV@DHDURZ1.BITNET

This message must contain only one line in its body:

            SUBSCRIBE ELLHNIKA <your 1st name> <your last name>

The list has currently about 75 subscribers with Yannis Haralambous
being the list owner.  Once you are a subscriber to this list, you may
send your questions/problems/ideas to

            ELLHNIKA@DHDURZ1.BITNET

Ultimately, you may also post your problem/request/whatever to the
relevant newsgroup of USENET, namely "comp.text.tex".

NOTE:  A slightly bigger version of the above document can be found at
"ftp.tex.ac.uk" (134.151.44.19) at the directory: "help/greek.faq". 


-------------------
Posted for 1st time:  Feb.   6, 1993
Revised (abridged):   May    2, 1993
Revised (abridged):   May    8, 1993



b. Other typesetting systems
============================

If you don't have any way to find Greek fonts, use the Symbol font.
It works, albeit as a last resort.

Troff: We have a set of plain Greek (ie. no italics, no boldfaces, etc.)
To be more specific, a program here reads ELOT-928 text, and, when it
encounters a Greek character, it spits out a set of Troff commands.
Obviously, it's a hack, but It works. I would like to see a more general
solution, though.
NOTE: There's an effort here to make a better (and documented) solution
for Unix and X11 or vt220's. You'll read an announcement when its in
a distributable state.

WordPerfect: Even before there existed a Greek dealer, WP had support for
Greek letters in its 3-byte format. I don't know more details, but you'll
get best results if you get one of these Word Processing packages from
Greece.

======================================================================

6. Greek fonts into X Windows
==============================

From: phdye+@cs.cmu.edu (Philip Dye)
Newsgroups: comp.graphics,brown.graphics
Subject: Re: Is there a way to get Greek fonts into ``idraw''?

---
>Does anyone know how Greek characters can be brought into idraw?
>I am trying to draw figures for a paper and am frustrated by
>the lack of support for using Greek letters in the figures in
>the program idraw.
>       -Alan Arehart
>        aba@lems.brown.edu

Idraw (like all x applications) uses the 'X Logical Font Description' for
specification of screen fonts.  Using this specification one includes enough
information for the X server to locate a font.  To get a list of the
available fonts from a given server use the 'xlsfont' command.  So to
determine a specification for the Adobe Symbol one might use the following:

  % xlsfonts | grep -i symbol

  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--10-100-75-75-p-61-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--11-80-100-100-p-61-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--12-120-75-75-p-74-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--14-100-100-100-p-85-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--14-140-75-75-p-85-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--17-120-100-100-p-95-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--18-180-75-75-p-107-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--20-140-100-100-p-107-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--24-240-75-75-p-142-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--25-180-100-100-p-142-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--34-240-100-100-p-191-adobe-fontspecific
  -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--8-80-75-75-p-51-adobe-fontspecific

Each of the above specifies a specific X11 screen font.  As much of the
information is common, a simpler specification will still result in precise
match.  For example, '*-symbol-medium-*-240-*' uniquely identifies a font.
If the given pattern does not uniquely identify a font, the first available
font, as listed by the xlsfonts program, is used.

In addition, idraw requires that one specify a postscript font and point
size to associate with the screen font.

Adding the following to your X11 defaults (or resources) will enable for
symbol font items in idraw.

idraw*font12:         *-symbol-medium-r-*-100-*      Symbol             10
idraw*font13:         *-symbol-medium-r-*-120-*      Symbol             12
idraw*font14:         *-symbol-medium-r-*-140-*      Symbol             14
idraw*font15:         *-symbol-medium-r-*-240-*      Symbol             24

From: pnevmati@milhouse.cs.wisc.edu (Dionisios N. Pnevmatikatos)
-----------------------------------

You can get the fonts and a xterm resources file from
bashan.cs.wisc.edu using anonymous ftp.

The relevant files are in the /pub/hellenes/X11.greek directory and are called:

Gterm.rsrc and greekXfonts.shar


=======================================================================


7. Backgammon servers
======================

From: jdd1@cec2.wustl.edu (James Dimos Dimarogonas)
-------------------------

  -Backgammon Servers
   telnet ouzo.rog.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.130.46] 4321
   telnet solana.mps.ohio-state.edu [128.146.37.78] 3200

    offers: Play Backgammon! (Login: guest)

======================================================================

End of Technical Part of the FAQ
-- 
Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis         National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece
HOME: 16 Esperidon St.,       InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
      Halandri, GR - 152 32   UUCP:    mcsun!pythia!theseas!nfotis
      Athens, GREECE          FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578



*****************************************************************
Soc.Culture.Greek Frequently Asked Questions and Answers
========================================================
(Linguistics)
=============

Last Change: 17 April 1993

[ ANYONE WHO WANTS TO EDIT IT, SO IT CAN BE MORE ORGANIZED / READABLE ??? ]

Many FAQs, including this one, are available on the archive site
rtfm.mit.edu [18.70.0.224] in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers.
The name under which a FAQ is archived appears in the Archive-name line
at the top of the article.
This FAQ is archived as greek-faq/linguistics

There's a mail server on that machine. You send a e-mail message to
mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu  containing the keyword "help" (without
quotes!) in the message body.

Items Changed:
--------------

[ ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SPLIT IT INTO MORE SUBJECTS,
  SO IT CAN BE MORE ORGANIZED??? ]

--

Lines which got changed, have the `#' character in front of them.
Added lines are prepended with a `+'
Removed lines are just removed. Use 'diff' to locate these changes.

I have included my comments within braces '[' and ']'.

Nikolaos Fotis

========================================================================

This text is (C)Copyright 1992, 1993 of Nikolaos C. Fotis. You can copy
freely this file, provided you keep this copyright notice intact.

Compiled by Nikolaos (Nick) C. Fotis, e-mail: nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr

Please contact me for updates,corrections, etc.

Disclaimer: that's only a hasty collection of texts and information as I
(or other people) remember it, so this file is worth only what you paid
for it (and even less! ;-) )

========================================================================

Subjects:
=========

1. Difference between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern
=============================================================
        Greek pronunciations??
        ======================

[ ANYONE WHO WANTS TO EDIT IT, SO IT CAN BE MORE ORGANIZED??? ]

I ask the people to send me stuff in order to make this file more
complete. I'm just a kind of editor, and I cannot know everything.

YOU'll determine if this FAQ is good or not!

========================================================================

1. Difference between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern
=============================================================
        Greek pronunciations??
        ======================

[ This question spawned a HUGE thread!! I'm quoting from the various
 correspodents who participated in this thread . Basically, there are
 two subtopics here:

 a. How does one express pronounciation of Greek text in English-like
        languages?
 b. How did ancient Greeks pronounce their written works??

 There's no end to this debate. I'm just quoting the various opinions
 and (mis)information ;-) presented in USENET -- nfotis . I hope no one
 asks again about that subject :-/ ]

From: adjg@sour.sw.oz.au (Andrew Gollan)
----

drg@candidus.ma30.bull.com (Daniel R. Guilderson) writes:

|I have an English translation of Homer's Odyssey. There is a
|pronunciation key in an appendix but the author states that ALL 'c's
|are pronounced as 'k' and all 'ch's as 'kh'. Well I know that modern
|Greeks pronounce Chios as hee'os. So how would you pronounce Circe^
|(circumflex over the e) and Cynthera? I can't imagine pronouncing
|Circe^ as kir'kee, although anything is possible I suppose.

|Maybe someone from s.c.g can comment on some of the differences
|between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern Greek pronunciations?

You are pushing shit uphill trying to reconstruct the Classical Greek
pronunciation from the "English" equivalents. All but a very few English
works adopt the Latinized spellings of the Greek names, which were themselves
at best an approximation. We then apply modern English pronunciation to
the Latin spellings resulting in completely warped pronunciation.

        Latinized       Greek letter    Sound
        ---------       ------------    -----
        a (short)       alpha           u as in 'cup'
        a (long)        alpha           a as in 'father'
        b               beta            b as in 'bed'
        c               kappa           as french hard c: 'comment'
        d               delta           d as in 'dog'
        e (short)       epsilon         e as in 'pet'
        e (long)        eta             as all of 'air'
        f               -               -
        g               gamma           g as in 'god'
        h (initial)     rough breathing h as in 'hot'
        i               iota            i as in 'pit'
        j               -               -
        k               kappa           as french hard c: 'comment'
        l               la(m)bda        l as in 'lid'
        m               mu              m as in 'mud'
        n               nu              n as in 'net'
        o (short)       omicron         o as in 'pot'
        o (long)        omega           aw as in 'awful'
        p               pi              as french p: 'Paris'
        q               -               -
        r               rho             rolled r as in french: 'rue'
        s               sigma           s as in 'sad' (mostly)
        t               tau             as french t: 'tu'
        u               omicron+upsilon oo as in 'tool'
        v               -               -
        w               -               -
        x               xi              x as in 'fax' (even first in a word)
        y (short)       upsilon         as french u: 'tu'
        y (long)        upsilon         as french u: 'sur'
        z               zeta            zd

        ch              khi             c as in 'cot' (emphatically)
        ph              phi             p as in 'pot' (emphatically)
        th              theta           t as in 'top' (emphatically)

        ae              alpha+iota      as all of 'eye'
        au              alpha+upsilon   as ow in 'cow'
        ei              epsilon+iota    a as in 'take'
        eu              epsilon+upsilon as all of 'yew' (sort of)
        oi              omicron+iota    oy as in 'boy'

The latinization is not quite regular in its treatment of upsilon. Words
which start with upsilon in Greek always have a rough breathing (i.e. an
initial 'h') but this is not always transcribed into latin. Also some
upsilons are transcribed as 'u' not 'y', which adds to the confusion.
Note the major differences between the long and short versions of the vowels,
this, combined with the total absense of any marking for the length, gives
you a lot of leeway for mispronouncing these names. Without looking them
up in the Greek you just can't know the length.

The Greek accent of the time was a melodic rather than the modern stress
accent. There were three marks an acute ('), a grave (`) and a circumflex (~)
which indicated the type of pitch change to apply to a word. Almost all
words have exactly one stress mark somewhere in the last three syllables.
This is not recorded in the Latinization.


From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara")
----

It seems correct that the c's are pronounced as k's.
In ancient Greek,
an i is pronounced as i in kit (i.e. short ee)
An eta is pronounces as ee (i.e. long)
An y is also pronounced same as i (but thinner).
Therefore Circe^ should be Kirkee
and Cynthera Kintheera.
Here the `th' combination is pronounced as the first 2 letters in `think'.

In modern Greek, i, eta, and y are all pronounced almost the same.
There is no short, long, thin e.
As for the 'ch's I don't think that there is a respective sound
in English. The closest is a strong 'h'. 'kh' is not that far either.
Also, as far as I know, ancient Greeks pronounced the first sound
of some words deeper than modern Greeks.
These words, when they lost the deep sound in the beginning
(this could have happened at the end of the Hellenistic period),
were written with a so-called `spirit' (daseia in Greek)
to remind the deep sound. Such words are found in English
starting with `h'. Examples `hyper' (yper), hippopotamus
(ippopotamos), hero (eros, pronounced eeros, this does not mean love)
horizon (orizwn, the w is omega), rhetor (retwr) etc.
Another difference between ancient and modern Greek pronounciation
is the diphthong case. Modern Greeks pronounce `ai' as `e' (epsilon),
`ou' as `u' (as in put), `ei' as `ee', `eu' as `ef' or `ev',
`au' as `af' or `av', while ancient Greeks pronounced the two
sounds with their original sound, i.e. each phthong separetely,
without creating new phtongs.


From: kd@doc.ic.ac.uk (Kostis Dryllerakis)
----

        There is a wide debate about the pronunciation of ancient greek.
It is obvious that we have no sound record of the era and we can only
reconstruct sounds from their evolution to modern greek (actually there
are studies about the "special" words that imitate sounds like pain,
and animal sounds but I haven't heard of definite conclusions).

        The controvercy on the pronunciation of ancient greek started when
European classic scholars requested a code to be adopted as the
"standard one" among them. Erasmus is principally responsible for the
pronunciation given to ancient greek from scholars even now. His
proposal was based to the closeness of the ancient greek to the latin-based
languages and was many times arbitrary. Later in his life he is said to
have renounced his own pronunciation scheme.

        So the controversy will remain live. For us greeks, we would like
to believe that our language is not only close to ancient greek to its
symbols but also to its sounds. I beleive that I speak for all of the fellow
scientists when I say that we are at least amused by the pronunciation of the
greek alphabet as used in mathematics related sciences.

Take care when you refer to "correct pronunciation" to mention a particular
era in history since you do not expect people at Homer's time to have
pronounced things the same way as in classical or Hellenistic times. In case
you believe this is possible it might be wise to also check the modern greek
pronunciation.

From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
----

The languages of Western Europe absorbed many Greek words
and place names through Latin translations. Remember that
in Latin, Cicero is pronounced "Kikero," Caesar as "Kaisar,"
and so forth. When these Latinised names were transmuted
into English, French, and the other languages of Western
Europe, the spelling for the most part remained the same,
but the difference in pronounciation was not taken into
account. Circe, if I am not mistaken, is indeed pronounced
"kir'kee" in Greek. Interestingly, Russian and other Slavic
languages preserved the ancient pronounciation of Greek
names better than Western Europe. Cyprus, in Russian,
is Kipr, Plato is "Platon," Thucydides is "Fukidid," etc.

From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
----



>       There is a wide debate about the pronunciation of ancient greek.
>It is obvious that we have no sound record of the era and we can only
>reconstruct sounds from their evolution to modern greek (actually there

That is part, but only part, of the data. There are, additionally, the
transcriptions of Greek words into other languages (Latin, Persian,
Coptic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and on into the later movements of peoples of
various languages), all variously well known -- plus of course borrowing
in the other direction INTO Greek, at various times. There are also the
comments on pronunciation BY ancient Greek grammarians (not as good at
this as the Sanskrit school leading to Panini, but still quite valuable).

All of this can be used to cross-check and validate/falsify hypotheses
about ancient Greek pronunciations, and the hypotheses themselves and
the standards for reasoning about them derive from a very considerable
modern development of phonology and theoretical linguistics.

None of this makes the results "certain" -- but a lot more is securely
known than in the first fumbling days of the rediscovery of Greek by
the Western Europeans. It is also a somewhat distinct issue from that
of a TEACHING pronunciation of Greek -- there are enough unresolved
(and probably unresolvable) problems like just how to produce the pitch
accents (simply importing Asian models begs the question) that teachers
generally follow and establish local practive even knowing that it is
not a good "reproduction" of the ancient sound.

From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
----

>Maybe someone from s.c.g can comment on some of the differences
>between Ancient Greek pronunciations and modern Greek pronunciations?


The big differences:

 The differences between H, I, Y, EI, OI and YI (did I forget one?)
have become extinct. Actually, the popular Greek singer Savvopoulos and
some computer-armed speech scientists came forward a few years ago,
proving that a difference still exists, although it is nowhere as
pronounced as it used to be.

 Ditto for O and W (omega), ditto for E and AI.

The 'h' sound before some words (represented by ` on the first letter)
has dissapeared. Example Hellas -> Ellas. Ditto for the differences in
pronounciation marked by psili vs daseia vs perispomeni. For that
reason, (and to ease the transition to automation), all these
punctuation points were merged to one, a few years ago.

 But what do I know? I am a programmer, not a linguist. J.T.Pring writes
in his preface of the Oxford Dictionary of Modern Greek:

<<After the hellenistic period, the distinguishing power of word-accent
lay in its position rather than its pitch, and the former distinctions
in vowel length were lost. Certain words now show a stronger tendency to
keep the primary stress in their inflected forms. A E I O have remained
more or less unchanged in quality; OY was already U before the end of
the classical period; and W merged with O as a mid back vowel after the
first century AD, and the second element of AY HY had developed into a
labial fricative. H and EI had both become I by early Byzantine times. Y
and OI were being confused as `u' [thats two dots over the u] in
Hellenistic Greek, and both became i by the tenth century.

 Double consonants have been reduced to single, except in a few
dialects. The aspirated voiceless stops Theta, Phi, Chi had changed to
fricatives by the fourth century AD, and initial h (marked by the "rough
breathing") had dissapeared. By the same date, the voiced stops
represented by Beta, Delta, Gamma had become replaced by fricatives. but
in certain modern forms the labial and dental stops are still
preserved after M N, being now written as P T, eg GAMPROS < GAMBROS,
DENTRO < DENDRON. The original voiceless P T K following a nasal have
changed to voiced (which can also occur without the nasal environment,
especially in the initial position). Among other phonological changes
are (i) loss of many initial and medial unaccented vowels, including the
verbal augment. (ii) Loss of nasals finally and before a continuant
consonant. (iii) Dissimilation of voiceless consonant groups, eg FTERO <
PTERON, OXTW < OKTW, SKOLIO < SXOLEION, EKACA < EKAYSA [C = Psi].>>

[things in brackets are Michael's comments]

From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
----

[ About the Erasmian model of pronounciation ]

> ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara"):
>
>> ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
>>
>>I think that it was Erasmus who first claimed the above, as well as that
>>the today's "soft" greek consonents (ghamma, dhelta, etc.) were pronounced
>>as "hard" by the ancients (i.e., "g", "d", etc.) - and so the term
>>Erasmian pronounciation. I believe that this theory is very highly
>>disputed today.
>
>I received another message about this, and I think you are right.
>Indeed, I have heard that there is a dispute about the pronounciation
>proposed by Erasmus, and that many of his interpretations of the
>Greek sounds/letters/language are questioned.
>When I was in high-school I was taught the Erasmian interpretation
>and nothing else. I heard about the dispute later.

Actually, even this dispute became an emotional matter for the greeks.
If you really think about it, not only the language but the way it is
pronounced is a matter related to the national characteristics of a nation.
Imagine ancient greek pronounced the Erasmian way: with all these hard
consonents and the abundance of two-vowel sets (i.e., vowel followed by
vowel). The latter is something that we know very well that was
considered as quite bad-sounding to a anc.greek's ear ("hasmodia").
Actually the whole effect would be an almost .... dutch sounding - and
hence the accusation by many greeks that all these Erasmian theories
so often adopted by germanic scholars were a part of the well-known
trend of association of ancient greek culture/arian theories/modern germanic
peoples. The greeks of course go to the other extreme and often preach that
hardly any basic change occured in accent.
For the dipthong pronounciation argument (i.e., e.g. "oi"="i" or "o-i") I had
seen some time ago the following evidence against the Erasmian pronounciation
[the validity of the theory behind which , as I said earlier, I believe not
to be that popular any more(?)]: an Athenian
speaker is said to have confused his audience by the use of the word
"loimos" vs. "limos" (both, in modern greek would be pronounced as "leemos",
while they mean [in both anc. and modern greek] a desease and hunger,
respectively). For a confusion to have occured, it is argued, both words
should have been pronounced the same in ancient greek, as well.

From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
----

[Mr. Fouliras notes that
1) noone really knows what the *real* pronunciation was like,
2) that accent marks were added later to help with the learning task,
3) that there were various dialects of ancient Greek.]

As my final contribution to this thread, I will note that the author
of the above tape set spends many minutes at the beginning
of the tapes making all of these points, and more, discussing
why we should bother learning how to pronounce ancient Greek
(not only for intellectual honesty, but for a complete aesthetic
experience); how we know the way the language was pronounced
(a specific greek Grammerian was mentioned, talking about
the circumflex ("bending the pitch"), the grave and acute accents,
as well as a specific example of how the borrowing of a Greek
word into Latin (pilosopia) gives a clue to the pronunciation
of 'p,'); and finally, that there were various dialects -- the
Aeolic, the Attic, the Ionic -- and that the only one of these
that we have much evidence for is the Attic of classical Athens,
that though we have few clues how Homeric Greek might have been
spoken, since the received texts of Homer are from the later period
anyway, this is what is will be covered.

The narrator fully acknowledges that although his reconstruction
is necessarily hypothetical, nevertheless it is based on solid
scholarship, and he references the _Vox Graeca_ that others in
this thread have mentioned, and another work I can't recall now,
also discussing why his reconstruction is superior to that of Erasmus.

Included in the tape are examples of the opening lines of
the Iliad, as spoken by a modern Greek, by a person speaking
the Erasmeian reconstruction, and his reconstruction, including
all of the pitch and metrical accents. The tapes, after
covering the pronunciation of individual letters, progresses
to that of the various accent marks, and then to how to
master the poetical meter of e.g. Homer, using a five step
learning process. The last examples given are passages
from major authors like Aeschylus, Euripides, Plato, and
lastly, that of the only complete extant poem of Sappho,
with a soooo exquisite dovely cooing quality to it that my
spine tingles now thinking of it.

From: wiltinkm@dutiws.twi.tudelft.nl (M. Wiltink.a73A.telnr-015-138378)
----

It seems to me that most, if not all of the people here start with
English renderings of Latinised versions of Greek names and then
wonder where things went wrong.

The Greeks had no such letter as the c. They had sigma, which poses
no problems and becomes s, and kappa, k. This is where most of the
trouble starts. Most Greek words passed on to recent times came via
Latin. Latin, however, had no (well, almost no) k and used c, pronounced
...k. Then modern languages started pronouncing c as either s or k,
depending on what letter followed it. Believe it or not, ALL c's in
words derived from Greek should be pronounced k. The same, by the way,
goes for c's in Latin words, though this should not be taken to mean
that I want everybody to pronounce 'circus' 'kirkus'. There are words
that have become sufficiently English to pronounce them by the rules
for English, which say that ce, ci are pronounced se, si. But in most
Greek names, I myself do prefer to write and pronounce k - Alkibiades,
to name one example.

[ ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara") comments on the last
 paragraph:

I agree, with a minor comment.
I think the (ancient) Greeks had 2 alphabets, which were very similar
to each other. One was called western or Chalkidean (by people from
Chalkis) and the other eastern or Ionian (by people from Asia Minor,
centered in Miletos).
I think (but I am not sure) that the western had a 'c'.
But Athens at some point around 400 BC decided to adopt the eastern-
Ionian alphabet and drove all Greeks in that way. The western-Chalkidean
alphabet was used as basis for the Latin alphabet (indirectly
through the Etruscan one?). Todays Greek alphabet is the eastern-Ionian
one, with the lower case letters developed later.

End of parenthesis -- nfotis ]

The same goes for ai, which became ae in Latin and is generally, though
not universally, pronounced ay as in 'hay'. Personally and subjectively,
I prefer the sound found in 'high'. The upsilon, u, is a bit different.
It was transcribed y in Latin but in German and in Scandinivian languages
y is still pronounced u. This is sometimes a major source of irritation for
me, as most ski-jumping commentators pronounced 'Nyk\"anen' 'Nikaanen'
instead of 'Nukaynen' during the time he was all over Sportnet.

From: cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
----

[ Regarding the last post... ]
This is almost, but not quite, right.

There were in fact many Greek alphabets. I suspect every city had its
own variant. and even within cities there is not total consistency. They
do, however, fall into families, and the division between east and west
is significant.

The origin of the letter c is rather odd. The Romans got their alphabet
from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as to
whether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greek
alphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearest
Greeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greek
alphabet. On the other hand, the occasional use of the east Greek letter
samech is evidence against this view. It was not, however, the Athenian
alphabet; it contained, for example, the letter Koppa, which became the
ancestor of our Q. Etruscan did not distinguish between voiced and
unvoiced gutturals (K and G), and so used both of those letters for the
same sound. The Romans, however, did (like us) make the distinction, but
instead of doing the rational thing and reinstating the original uses of
the Greek letters, they marked the gamma to signify when it was
unvoiced. So: C is originally a gamma (write a capital gamma leaning a
bit and you will see how it happened); G is a gamma with a marker to
show that it really is a gamma. And that is why the Roam alphabet
acquired 3 letters for the same sound: K,C and Q.

Just to make life complicated, in some forms of Greek writing the sigma
is written a bit like our c. This has been adopted by some modern
scholars (we call it the lunate sigma) especially by epigraphists who do
not want to beg questions about where words end.

[ In another post, regarding Greek alphabets ]



Lambros Skartsis (ls1@cec1.wustl.edu) wrote:
:
: cla02@keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace) writes:
:
: >... The Romans got their alphabet
: >from the Etruscans, who got it from the Greeks. There is a dispute as to
: >whether the alphabet the Etruscans adopted was a west or east Greek
: >alphabet. Common sense would suggest that they got it from the nearest
: >Greeks to them, those in Cumae, who used a variant of the west Greek
: >alphabet.
:
: Richard, wasn't Cumae a colony of the greek city called Cyme, in Euboea?
: (the colony retained the name Cyme, Cumae being the latin version).
: That is the only theory I am aware of (I can't pretend to have much
: knowledge on the
: topic!), i.e., that Etruscans took their alphabet from Cyme. But did
: the mother-city (metropolis) in Euboea use the west form of the alphabet?

There is a tradition the Cumae was founded from the Greek city Cyme in
Aeolis in Asia Minor (just a bit north of Smyrna). Strabo says it was a
joint foundation of Chalcis and Cyme in Euboea, which explains its name
(he says that they did a deal that the city should be called after Cyme,
but be a colony of Chalcis) , but he also records traditions that it was
a colony of Chalcis alone, and gives another explanation for the name. I
would guess that this means that the Cyme stories are just attempts at
etymology (but who knows?).

Anyway, none of this is relevant, because they did use a version of the
Chalcidian alphabet in Cumae. I think the Chalcidian alphabet is
classified as a Western alphabet, isn't it?

[ He checked, in David Diringers 'The Alphabet' (3rd edition I think), and
 he seems right ]


From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
----

The Pronunciation and Reading of Ancient Greek: A Practical Guide
Stephen G. Daitz
ISBN 0-88432-125-8

Audio Forum, a div. of Jeffrey-Norton Publishers
On-The-Green, Guillford, CT 06437

New York sales office:
145 E. 49th, NY,NY 10017

London sales
31 Kensington Church St.
London W8 4LL, U.K.

Other tapes in The Living Voice of Greek and Latin Lit.:

_The Birds_
Cicero, selections
_Hekabe_
Greek Poetry
The P. & R. of Ancient Latin

From: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU)
----

From "Vox Graeca: A Guide to Pronunciation of Classical Greek", by W.
Sidney Allen, 3rd Edition, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge,
Great Britain 1987, pp. 177--179.


                        SUMMARY OF
                RECOMMENDED PRONUNCIATIONS

(`English' refers to the standard or `received' pronunciations of
Southern British English. Asterisks indicate less accurate
approximations.)

alpha (short)           As first `a' in Italian `amare'
                        *As vowel of English `cup'
                        (N.B. not as vowel of `cap')

alpha (long)            As second `a' in Italian `amare'
                        *As `a' in English `father'

alpha with iota         As `alpha (long)'
        subscript

alpha-iota              As in English `high'

alpha-upsilon           As in English `how'

alpha (long)-           As `alpha-upsilon'
        upsilon

beta                    As English `b'

gamma                   (1) As English "hard" `g'
                        (2) Before kappa, chi, gamma, mu:
                        as `n' in English `ink' or `ng' in `song'

delta                   As French `d'
                        *As English `d'

epsilon                 As in English `pet'

epsilon-iota            As in German `Beet'

epsilon-upsilon         Pronounce as two vowels: `epsilon' `upsilon'

zeta                    [zd] as in English `wisdom'

eta                     As in French `t^ete'

eta with iota           As `eta'
        subscript

eta-upsilon             As `epsilon-upsilon'

theta                   As `t' in English `top' (emphatically pronounced)
                        *As `th' in English `thin'

iota (short)            As in French `vite'
                        *As in English `bit'

iota (long)             As in French `vive'
                        *As in English `bead'

kappa                   As French "hard" `c', or English (non-initial)
                        `k', `ck', or "hard" `c'

lambda                  As French `l', or English `l' before vowels
                        *As English `l' in other contexts

mu                      As English `m'

nu                      As `n' in French or *English `net'

xi                      As `x' in English `box'

omicron                 As in German `Gott'
                        *As in English `pot'

omicron-iota            As in English `boy', `coin'

omicron-upsilon         As in English `pool' or French `rouge'

pi                      As French `p', or English (non-initial) `p'

rho                     As Scottish "rolled" `r'

sigma                   (1) As `s' in English `sing', or `ss' in `less',
                        `lesson'
                        (2) Before `beta', `gamma', `delta', `mu': as
                        English `z' (N.B. but not elsewhere)

sigma-sigma             As `sigma' `sigma'

tau                     As French `t'
                        *As English (non-initial) `t'

upsilon (short)         As in French `lune'

upsilon (long)          As in French `ruse'

upsilon-iota            [no pronunciation rule given]

phi                     As `p' in English `pot' (emphatically pronounced)
                        *As `f' in English `foot'

chi                     As `c' in English `cat' (emphatically pronounced)
                        *As `ch' in Scottish `loch'

psi                     As `ps' in English `lapse'

omega                   As in English `saw'

omega with iota         As `omega'
        subscript

[The author of this monography discusses also how to pronounce the
accented vowels and the double consonants. In conclusion, he says
that the accents should not be pronounced in a `melodic' way -- which,
he states, was the way Ancient Greek was spoken --, but rather in
a `stress-based' way like Byzantine and Modern Greek, because the
Ancient Greek melodic pronounciation of accents is not known. He
also states that the iota-subscript should not have any effect on the
pronounciation of the vowel it accompanies. Finally, he says that
double consonants should be pronounced the same as single ones, only
a bit longer.]


From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)
----

>By the way, Greek netters seem to have some ideological reason
>to believe that their native language is very similar to
>classical Greek. In practise I've had a lot of troubles when

 I think that there is some confusion here between 'language' and
pronounciation. The language is extremely similar, especially if one
compares late hellenistic period Greek (circa 1 a.d.) with modern
Greek. It is much easier for me as a modern Greek to read the New
Testament (1950 years old), that it is for an english-speaking person to
read Chaucher (a modern piece of work, by comparison).

 The pronounciation changed a lot. But, again, changes since the late
hellenistic period are minor compared to the changes to English since
half that long ago. In general, it is agreed that Greek pronounciation
has changed very little since 1000ad.

 In fact, as recently as a few decades ago, a number of regional
dialects used syntactical and phonological features of corresponding
ancient Greek dialects (in mountainous northern Laconia, for example,
where the ancient Doric dialect survived practically intact).
Unfortunately, after WWII, control of education was taken away from the
local village/parish level, and all Greeks now sound like they are from
Athens. Only recently did Greeks realise what a terrible waste of
valuable cultural resources that was.

[ When challenged "why these valuable resources, in light of the need to
 rebuild the country from zero?", in my words, he replied:

1. There was no effort to study and record these languages. Where
some research was made (with the Tsakones, for example), dialects were
found that were completely identical to the corresponding ancient Greek
dialects for those regions. Having records of these dialects would
provide us with valuable information about ancient and byzantine Greek.

2. Ditto for all the regional literature of these areas. Along with
these dialects, we also tossed away volumes of oral tradition. Again,
where ever research was made, the knowledge gained was tremendous. By
the time the Greek state woke up to what had happened, and started
funding research projects, many papoudes and giagiades had died, and
with them many stories that the younger generation did not learn because
anything said in a village dialect was considered 'unimportant' and
'uncultured'. The end result was the same as if though thousands of
books had been burned.

 In all fairness, it is hard to blame anyone for what happened. With
Greece badly underdeveloped in the 1920s, the big restructuring of
education, which became totally centralised after WWII, was nescessary.
Back then development was the only priority, and the funds for research
were not available.
]


>pronouncing Greek names in the classical way, which is usual
>for Finns (even tourists without any classical education).
>I was unable to find my way to Herakleion before I learned
>to call it "Iraklio".

 But what is the 'Classical Way'? This subject started with a question
on the pronunciation of 'Circee'. All english educated people know that


this is pronounced 'Sir-see'. Yet, everyone who expressed an opinion on
this group so far has agreed that the right pronounciation is 'Kir-kee'.
As for "Herakleion', most americans would pronounce it 'He-ra-KLEI-on',
because the anglisezed word does not carry the accent mark, which makes
the classical prounanciation 'He-RA-klei-on'.

According to J.T. Pring's comments which I posted a few days ago:

Both the Eta (H) and the Epsilon-iota (EI) had become I by early
byzantine times --> hi-RA-kli-on

The initial h dissapeared by the fourth century AD --> i-RA-kli-on

The final 'n' began dropping out of use in local dialects sinse
Byzantine times, and is now becoming rare, but many people still use it,
in fact pre-1980 road signs and maps usually read "HRAKLEION".

So, one's classical pronounciation of 'Herakleion' would have been as
much understood in 1992ad as it would have been understood in 400ad. Not
bad, I think.

From: filippou@cs.mcgill.ca (Dimitrios FILIPPOU)
-------------------------------------------------
[ Regarding Allen's book ; added R. Wallace's <cla02@keele.ac.uk> and
 Stavros Macrakis' <macrakis@osf.org> remarks to this message. R.Wallace's
 comments are prefaced with RW>, while Stavros' are prefaced with
 SM>; I hope these aren't too hard to follow -- nfotis ]:

SM> Below, some comments on your notes.  But the basic questions you don't
SM> address are: why would the ancients bother to invent six different
SM> ways of writing the sound "i"?  And two different ways of writing "e"
SM> or "o"?  And sometimes doubling consonants, and sometimes not?  And
SM> how do you explain the structure of ancient poetry without referring
SM> to syllable quantity, which depends on vowel length?
SM> 
SM> The other issues (pronunciation of gamma as hard g or as gh, etc.) are
SM> less important, because they don't change the STRUCTURE of the system.
SM> In fact, I think it would make sense -- at least for teaching in
SM> Greece -- to preserve the modern pronunciation for them.  Keeping
SM> distinct pronunciations for the diphthongs and long vowels (eta,
SM> omega), on the other hand, would preserve the ancient structure and
SM> seems important.

First, let's see some *facts*:

 1.  The system of (Ancient and Modern) Greek writting -- as
     we know it today -- has been developped by the Alexan-
     drian and (mostly) by the Byzantine grammarians.  For
     example, it is the Byzantines who introduced the small
     Greek letters around the 9th c. AD.

RW> This is true, but the writing system is immaterial. There is a good deal
RW> of inscription material from the 5th and 4th centuries BC, and arguments
RW> from orthography are based on that.

SM> Although the system of diacritics (accents, breathings, iota
SM> subscript) was introduced by the Alexandrines, the consonants and
SM> vowels were around long before that!  As for small letters, I don't
SM> see how that affects pronunciation.


 2.  There's not much -- if any at all -- difference between
     the Byzantine (after, say, 4-5th c. AD) pronounciation 
     and the Modern Greek pronounciation.   According to Allen 
     himself, changes from the Ancient Greek pronounciation
     (i.e., Allen's version) to the Byzantine/Modern Greek
     pronounciation may have come as early as in the first 
     century of Roman occupation of Greece (2nd c. BC).

RW> Quite right. Spelling mistakes in 2nd century AD papyri seem to show that
RW> substantial changes in pronunciation had taken place, while spelling (as
RW> often) remained more conservative. I vividly remember the first time I
RW> was faced with the text of a papyrus letter from this period, written by
RW> a young man who clearly had not been paying attention to his teachers at
RW> school! It didn't look like Greek at all! Then I pronounced it in the
RW> Modern Greek way, and it all became clear. But the fact that the pattern
RW> of variation in spelling is quite different from that of the 4th or 5th
RW> centuries is evidence that pronunciation had changed (as you would
RW> expect it to over such a period).

 3.  How the Ancient Greeks (here, we are talking about the
     Attic dialect, 5-4th c. BC) were pronouncing certain 
     letters, diphthongs, etc. is and -- I think -- will
     remain an unsolved problem.  

SM> Of course, the _exact_ pronunciation will never be known, but there is
SM> lots of evidence to help us get a good idea.  Modern pronunciation is
SM> one kind of evidence.

     On the one hand, we have the bleating of the sheep in 
     Aristophanes which is written as:

     beta-eta (w. acc. circ.) -- beta -eta (w. acc. circ.)

     In Modern Greek pronounciation this reads: "vee-vee",
     when common logic suggests that it should be read as
     "bebe".  Therefore, Allen recommends that "beta = `b' 
     as in `book'"; and "eta ~= epsilon".

RW> There is actually more to the argument than this. Latin, for example,
RW> transliterates beta as a B, and epsilon as an E. 

SM> True, we expect sheep to say "be be" and not "vi vi", but there is a
SM> lot of other evidence for these pronunciations.  When you say
SM> "therefore", it's as though this is the only evidence!

     On the other hand, we have the oracle of Delphoi to the
     Athenians, who could not understand whether it meant
     that they would suffer from famine ("limos") or from
     plague ("loimos") the first year of the Peloponnesian
     War (the Athenians' confusion is quoted by Thucydides).
     This confusion can be understood only if the Athenians
     were pronouncing

           iota = omicron-iota

     as Modern Greeks do.  But Allen suggests: "NO! omicron
     -iota = o-ee (i.e., a "true" diphthong).  (Allen discus-
     ses this notorious quote of Thucydides, but, I don't
     remember his points -- I returned the damned book :-( )

RW> No. The story requires the pronunciations to be similar, but not
RW> identical.

Some other *observations*:

a.  Allen accepts the Byzantine/Modern Greek pronounciation
    of the accents on the basis of "we don't know enough about
    the melodic accent reading of the Ancient Greeks".

SM> I don't think he "accepts" the modern pronunciation as being a good
SM> reconstruction; he simply recommends using it to simplify things,
SM> since the tonal system is not fully understood, and adds a lot of
SM> difficulty to teaching the language.  Given what we know of the
SM> Ancient Greek tonal system, by the way, it is more like the Japanese
SM> or Serbian systems than it is like the Chinese system.  Foreigners
SM> have trouble learning the Japanese and Serbian systems, and in fact
SM> usually "hear" the tones in those languages as stress patterns at
SM> first.  Given that there are no speakers of Ancient Greek, it would
SM> seem unproductive to spend a lot of time teaching this.  Conversely,
SM> teaching modern pronunciation would NOT help travellers in Greece make
SM> themselves understood!

    Could not this apply also in the way the Greek letters are read?
    I.e., once we don't know for sure how the Ancient Greeks
    were reading certain vowels, consonants, combinations of
    letters, etc., why don't we stick to the closest relative,
    the Byzantine/Modern Greek pronounciation?

RW> Some people regard this as a good argument. At least Ancient Greek
RW> pronounced as Modern Greek does sound as if it might be a real language!
RW> The argument against is that the modern pronunciation makes nonsense of
RW> Ancient Greek poetry, and loses much of the sound-play in any ancient
RW> text. Personally, I find this objection compelling, but it is possible
RW> to take a different view. But this is just a question of pedagogic
RW> convenience, and doesn't contribute to the question of how the language
RW> was pronounced. I think Allen is right about accents. It is certain that
RW> the ancient accents were pitch accents (as in Chinese) rather than
RW> stress accents; we know a good deal in theory about how they were
RW> pronounved (the musical interval over which the voice moved on a
RW> particular syllable and so on) but all actual attempts to put it into
RW> pracitice seem unconvincing to me. And students have quite enough hassle
RW> learning the language as it is! 

SM> Of course, we don't know "for sure", but we do have a lot of good
SM> evidence, including borrowings, related languages, and the internal
SM> structure of the language and the orthography.


b.  If we adopt Allen's recommendations certain sounds will
    be excluded from the Ancient Greek pronounciation.  Even
    if Allen is right in saying that most likely "beta = 
    English `b'", I find it hard to believe that the Ancient
    Greek (more precicely, the Athenians) had not ANY of the
    following soft (e.g., fricative) sounds in their 
    vocabulary:

        v --> Modern Greek "beta"
        y (as in English `young') --> M.G. "gamma"
        th (as in English `there') --> M.G. "delta"
        th (a in English `theatre') --> M.G. "theta"

    All languages that I'm familiar with (Modern Greek,
    English and French) have at least some of the above 
    sounds.  Why not Ancient Greek?

SM> !!  Actually, the (modern) "gamma" (the gh sound before a/o/u, not the
SM> y sound before i/e), "theta", and "dhelta" sounds are UNCOMMON in the
SM> world's languages.  For instance, none of Italian, Japanese, French,
SM> Turkish, Serbian, German, or Hawaiian has any of them.

c.  If we adopt Allen's recommendations, we get a pronouncia-
    tion full of hiatuses ("hasmodies").  My poor ear suffers
    when I try to read loudly by Allen's system words such
    as:

          aiphnidiazomai (= I get surprised)
          chairekakos (= malicious), etc.

SM> Why would you expect Ancient Greek to sound good to your ear?  Latin
SM> pronounced according to the historical pronunciation sounds strange to
SM> Italians, too.

    as it suffers when I hear my colleagues talking about
    "k-eye" (and they mean "chi" = `hee'), or "ps-eye" (and
    they mean "psi" = `psee') in Maths.

RW> Yes of course, what do you expect? And the pronunciation of Chaucerian
RW> English sounds weird to me! But we will all agree that Mathematicians
RW> pronounce Greek in a barbarous way!

SM> These are of course incorrect pronunciations according to Allen.
SM> Something like "k-eye" is the pronunciation of "kai" (and), not of the
SM> letter chi.

d.  Allen makes a direct attack in the Preface of the latest
    edition of his monography, on another Swedish (?) scholar
    who dares to say that Attic Greek was pronounced almost 
    the same as Byzantine/Modern Greek from the 4th c. BC. 
    This attack -- it's just a dismissal of the Sewde's 
    position w/out much justification -- has really surprised
    me.  (I'm not used to such scholar stabbings in the 
    Prefaces of books!)

In conclusion, I believe that anyone who wants to learn Ancient
Greek, he should better learn to pronounce it the way Byzantines
did and (Modern) Greeks do.  In this way, he/she will be
learning at least 50% of the Modern Greek language as well!

RW> If I were teaching a Greek, I might agree. The principal objection to
RW> believing that the modern pronunciation is basically the same as the
RW> ancient pronunciation (apart from the inherent plausibilty of any
RW> language remaining unchanged in pronunciation for two and a half
RW> thousand years, through a period when we know that accentuation,
RW> grammatical structure, and vocabulary did change substantially) is that
RW> it assumes that when the ancients adopted the alphabet they chose a
RW> system which was by no means phonetic (i.e. there are several ways of
RW> representing the same sound). In other words, the ancient greeks were
RW> dotty, which I am unwilling to accept. It is surely more likely that
RW> they initially adopted a system where there was a more or less
RW> one-to-one correspondence between letters and sounds, and that gradually
RW> pronunciation changed while orthography remained the same (as indeed it
RW> has done in many languages, including English and French), leading to
RW> these poor kids in the 2nd century AD getting all their spellings wrong.
RW> That, I think, is where the evidence, but we will always be guessing. 

SM> Pronunciation is probably the easiest thing to learn about Modern
SM> Greek if you know Ancient Greek.  (Although of course too many
SM> foreigners don't bother!)

Dimitrios Filippou



PS. I repeat: I'm not a classicist neither a linguist! Just an 
"boring/bored" engineer ....:-)
 
========================================================================

End of Linguistics Part of the FAQ
-- 
Nick (Nikolaos) Fotis         National Technical Univ. of Athens, Greece
HOME: 16 Esperidon St.,       InterNet : nfotis@theseas.ntua.gr
      Halandri, GR - 152 32   UUCP:    mcsun!pythia!theseas!nfotis
      Athens, GREECE          FAX: (+30 1) 77 84 578



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